Leading with Kindness

Discover how kindness, creativity, and collaboration fuel success as Mike Brevik shares his inspiring journey from a corporate career to founding Cyber Dogs, his digital marketing agency.

In this engaging conversation, Mike dives into building authentic relationships, fostering a supportive work environment, and leading with care. He opens up about the challenges and rewards of entrepreneurship, and the power of work besties, and offers valuable advice for aspiring entrepreneurs. Whether it’s the shift from corporate to entrepreneurship, the impact of virtual work, or the magic of authenticity in branding, Mike’s insights inspire you to surround yourself with people who uplift and energize you. Don’t miss it!

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Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband

Chapters

• 0:00 Entrepreneurial Journey and Work Besties
• 7:43 Building Strong Virtual Connections in Business
• 19:39 The Power of Authentic Relationships
• 26:42 Build Strong Business Relationships for Success
• 32:38 Embracing the Power of Work Besties

Transcript

Claude: 0:00

Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess. We are corporate employees by day, entrepreneurs by night and work besties for life.

Jessica: 0:08

Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up, laugh through the chaos and thrive together in every industry Work besties. We're so excited for today's episode. We're thrilled to have Mike Brevik with us. He is the founder of a digital marketing agency called CyberDog.

Jessica: 0:30

Mike is a brand architect, a marketing strategist, and he spent 20 plus years helping companies find their authentic voice. He's worked with some pretty amazing clients, from Nike to Under Armour to Harley Davidson, and he's really crafted that brand marketing magic that everybody's looking for that genuine, authentic connection with real people. Other things I want to make sure you guys know Mike is also a host of a podcast called Brand Retro and he's really good about encouraging his community to really create that connection. As Mike puts it, success only comes from how well you connect with the hearts of other people as you're trying to help them, which I feel is just so on brand for us in the WorkBestie community. So get ready for some incredible conversation with a fellow entrepreneur who knows the hustle of brand authentic voices and creating that special work work bestie vibe. So with that, thanks, mike, for joining us.

Mike: 1:31

Hey, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Jessica: 1:33

Of course, I thought we could just kick off with you giving a little bit of your background.

Mike: 1:37

My background originally was just fully creative. So getting out of school kind of being an art kid, I was kind of geared up to be an illustrator and a cartoonist and really draw and do some things like that with my career, and I spent a couple years at a small agency doing that. It didn't take me long in that process to kind of determine man, this is a pretty critical job and a lot of criticism coming with this and there's a lot of client input and I just kind of expected I was going to be more creative and get to do all these different things. But the reality of kind of how this whole thing works kind of hit me and I pivoted at that point to kind of go well, you know what, I'm going to back off on the drawing piece a little bit, because that was something that was pretty personal to me, and pivot a little bit more towards graphic design. And I spent a couple of years at that agency. Then I transitioned to printing for nine years and I kind of was on the production side of graphic design and was self-taught in web design. And after about nine years in printing I then transitioned to a corporate position where I started an e-com and basically built up a web presence for a pretty large retailer in the Midwest, and I spent another nine 10 years in kind of corporate world doing that and building out social media teams, and it transitioned kind of nicely, coincidentally for me, going from pen and paper to graphic design, to web design, to kind of marketing and more digital stuff. So it really transitioned nicely.

Mike: 2:57

But over the course of 20 plus years I kind of found myself not that I didn't like what I was doing and I was very I think I was pretty successful at it, but at the same time I kind of found myself not that I didn't like what I was doing and I was very I think I was pretty successful at it, but at the same time I kind of was I needed to scratch that creative itch again. And that's when I started CyberDogs in 2015 and kind of walked away from it all and just started over and really wanted to build something unique that was kind of housed and launched off this idea of creativity and partnerships and relationships and all these different things. So since 2015, I've been doing CyberDogs full time and dabbling in other companies and different things that I have going on, and so, yeah, you'd mentioned I was at about the 20 year mark when I made that shift and in 2025, I think, yeah, it'll be 30 years I've been doing this.

Jessica: 3:45

So, yeah, a long long time You've got a balance of like 20 years of corporate America and then about 10, almost 10 of being an entrepreneur. So curious what was the biggest shock in the transition from corporate America to being an entrepreneur?

Mike: 4:01

You know, the biggest shock, I think, was the de-censoring of how things work, because when you work a job for so long, you just believe that that's the only way and you might see other people start businesses and things, but you don't really know what goes into it.

Mike: 4:15

You don't necessarily know what that's like, because you collect that paycheck every two weeks For better or worse. There's just a lot of things are figured out for you and you know, the day that I walked away from a full time employment and I woke up and I always say this, but I either woke up unemployed or self-employed, maybe the same thing, I don't know. But that was just a blank canvas day where it was all in my hands at that point and it was like just the awareness and how I needed to not only think about every little thing, but some things were a lot easier than I thought they'd be and some things were like I didn't see that coming. Yeah, so it was just a whole different education, but I think it was just the experience of having to go through that Cause I don't know that everybody realizes that they probably have it in them to do that because we're so dependent on maybe that system or that full-time employment.

Jessica: 5:05

Or you're used to it, right.

Claude: 5:07

So it's that little fear of the unknown and also as an entrepreneur, you have to wear so many hats that sometimes you're not purviewed to, and it can be scary, and the fact of jumping can be scary for people.

Mike: 5:20

Yeah, I mean it definitely is. It's a very, very scary leap, but after you jump, it's just you're so committed at that point, like the fear isn't really an option, because it's like you're over the fear and now it's just I gotta figure this out. Yeah, so now you're not in figure it out mode. I think it was overall just a great experience. I mean, I think just on that day I became a better business person employee. I leveled up the day. I jumped. Now I just needed to kind of prove it to myself.

Jessica: 5:52

So knowing everything is on your own, the ability to have work best is a little different, right so from your perspective in your world from day one of being an entrepreneur to now. In your world, from day one of being an entrepreneur to now maybe a little different, um, but from day one, how did the work bestie, either the relationship or idea of it, change and how did you leverage that?

Mike: 6:14

I knew that what I wanted to do included other people, okay. So when I stepped out, I didn't really know how I was going to do it or what that really looked like like. I thought I had a plan, then I jumped and then it oh my gosh, like it was all of a sudden a reality, that blank canvas time. I'm a people person and whatever. So I instantly is like okay, who can I count on? Who do I surround myself with, who do I align with, who do I aspire to be like? So really, at that point it was really about how do I position myself in all these different scenarios to be with people that either checked one of those boxes or, you know, put me in the position to check the box for them. So I really went into it with kind of creating a plan of how to put myself in these different situations with the right people and then, like I said, put myself in the situation where I could be that for somebody else and then just hope the boomerang swung back my way at some point.

Jessica: 7:07

And did it? Did it swing back?

Mike: 7:09

Yeah, I mean it sounds kind of woo to talk about karma and stuff like that, but I don't know. I think if you're out there doing good things for other people and you don't ask for anything in return, the universe will find you. They'll reward you in some way. It might not even be directly from that person, but I just think it's worth it Time and time again, as I've done that not only in my previous 20 years, but even since I started CyberDogs. It just finds a way and it's interesting how that works and sometimes it's kind of head scratching and surprising, but it'll find you eventually.

Jessica: 7:43

Yeah, I would think, because one of the things that's a little different from being an entrepreneur than, say, working in a corporate environment is you're probably constantly changing who you're working with.

Mike: 7:54

Actually no.

Mike: 7:55

No, no, because I've always started this process with. I'm going to pick the right people and I'm going to build relationships that last and I'm going to really invest, not only myself, into them. I'm going to look for that investment back and over the course of nine years I've had very little client turnover. I've had very little team turnover. It's just slowly kind of compounded on itself. So people think inherently that entrepreneurship means it's kind of cutthroat, it's quick, it's fast. I mean, I think it probably can be like that. But that's not how I knew I'd succeed. I knew that I would have to build relationships so that I could take people with me and sometimes lift them up beyond myself, knowing that maybe it'll catch me later.

Jessica: 8:41

That's an amazing stat to say you've got very little turnover right. One of the things that we preach about having this appreciation and support system whether it's a work bestie or encouraging cross-mentoring, mentoring up, mentoring down in big corporate environments is because of that right Turnover. If you don't feel like you're connected, you're not in that community. I mean, I felt it at times too in certain places that I've worked. You don't feel connected, so you're going to leave. So it's great to hear that that's kind of one of the areas that you focus on. So how do you do that? How do you keep these people so engaged and wanting to stay?

Mike: 9:16

It's going to sound crazy, but I just I care. That's just where it starts.

Jessica: 9:21

That's just where it starts. That's not crazy. That's not crazy.

Mike: 9:24

Mike, I'm careful who I bring into the company and who I build those relationships with.

Mike: 9:28

So I think there's part of the selection process is kind of part of that.

Mike: 9:37

But once I know I'm vested in them and they're vested in me, it's a very organic thing to get to know people and want them to succeed, to help them succeed in other ways beyond just cyber, because CyberDogs isn't the center of the universe. So they have things going on and if I can help them in any way or help celebrate those wins for them, it's really about just kind of building relationship and kind of being transparent with them and caring and just try to be more than just a boss, like my team jokes about it, because they every once in a while they'll let it slip, they'll call me boss or whatever, and I stop them every time because I don't. I don't like that word, I don't like the distinction of how it separates us and I don't like the implied hierarchy. We're all on the same team. We all wear different hats. You know, whether I'm the owner or not doesn't really matter, because it's a collective thing and I always joke that the only boss is Bruce Springsteen.

Claude: 10:22

That's it so it's so funny because actually I do the same with my team. When they say my boss, I'm like no, we are teammates. You know, at the end of the day, we are together, we have the same goal. What I love, even what you say before, is that more or less you build your community of all from your different paths of life, of work experience, and more or less you took the best of the best in. You know that click with you. You know.

Jessica: 10:53

I think that is really incredible, yeah and we had a comment also about your client side, that you purposely picked ones that you knew you would kind of meshed. Well too. How do you go about doing that?

Mike: 11:05

It's part of the onboarding process in the sense that, like when they onboard with CyberDogs or even with me personally, it's not this robotic, traditional agency type onboarding, it's a very personal connection. Get to know Mike, get to know CyberDogs, get to know the client and you can tell. When you spend an hour with somebody, you can tell if they're a fit or if they're genuine and not. That one doesn't fall through the cracks once in a while. But for the most part we select based off of that connection, because I want them to be a good fit for my business as much as I want to be able to help them and I think they have to have some passion for their business and they have to be wanting to succeed and I don't want to necessarily be a gap filler for them. I want to be a team extension or a champion for them. So I want them to see us as an opportunity for them to grow.

Mike: 11:53

I just kind of look at all of that and we from there decide whether or not it's going to be a good fit and kind of what the terms are and what With lack of a better description I require myself, my team, my clients, everybody's got to be nice. We're not doing this cold business relationship thing where we're swinging heavy hammers at each other. I'm not doing that. I don't do negative email exchanges. If you've got something to say, we talk about it.

Mike: 12:20

And if we can't resolve those things and come together and look at those things as more of an ongoing collaboration versus a frustration, then we're probably not a good fit. I don't think that's a lot to ask.

Jessica: 12:31

It isn't a lot to ask. I feel you being so upfront and creating those boundaries is smart. I don't know that every company I've ever worked with would follow that.

Mike: 12:40

Well, to be honest, it's a waste of time. I've been in those traditional situations, whether it be corporate or agency or whatever. If you're going back and forth on more than two emails and it's a well, you said this I'm sorry, but you're wasting everybody's time. And then if you figure out what your dollar per hour is versus my dollar per hour, every one of those emails is costing us hundreds of dollars. So what are we?

Jessica: 13:03

doing.

Mike: 13:04

Yeah, just let's be nice, let's collaborate, let's have fun, let's figure that out. And you know I'm lucky in the sense that most of my clients get that. You know, we stumble from time to time and we have to remind people. But you know, when I really look at the last nine years and the fact that I think, I think we're at five, we've, we've, we've broken up with five clients in nine years, that's peanuts, I mean that's nothing, that's not a lot.

Jessica: 13:29

Yeah, that's really impressive.

Mike: 13:31

Yeah, so it works. It's definitely something we've embraced and we're going to continue to do.

Jessica: 13:36

That's really smart.

Claude: 13:36

So in your company are you all working together physically or is it virtual? And in that case, if it's virtual, how do you deal to keep this connection?

Mike: 13:48

It's all virtual. When I first started the company, it just felt natural to me to try to build a physical team around myself. So I was very much looking locally. You know, I was trying to bring in talent I could meet with on a regular basis, face-to-face. I had two offices at the time. I had two pilot offices in two different cities near me, so they were, you know, branded up with cyberdogs on the windows and I would kind of bounce in between them and it was a very physical type approach, and not that I really had a logic as to why that would be. It was just it felt natural to do that. That was probably the most struggle I'd had in the whole process, because people are hard, finding talent is hard. It was essentially just putting that much more pressure on me at all times to keep everything going while I continued the search. And then COVID happened. 2020 hit.

Mike: 14:36

The virtual nature of things took over. I wasn't meeting as much face-to-face with my clients and the people that worked for me. We weren't meeting as much face-to-face. The offices that I was paying for were essentially sitting empty most of the time and I just embraced we're going virtual. What does it matter? Right, because, as long as I can hop on Zoom and I can speak to the connection and I can build relationships. That way it'll be different, but I that's what we're going to have to do to weather this storm and we essentially blossomed through that whole thing. We actually grew our client, the virtual remote nature of our client set, grew, the team expanded and the byproduct of the whole thing and what I really found was that I was attracting different talents, better talents, like I was looking all over the country and finding people that were better than the ones that I was finding locally. No offense to those people, but like it really expanded my universe in a positive way.

Claude: 15:31

But how do you keep that you know connection Because a lot of time we all say the you know, return to the office and I know with Jess we got even closer because we were working next to each other. So how can you let people know to stay very strong and virtually next to each other?

Mike: 15:52

Tell me if you think this answers it, because I don't even really know the answer. How I think I do it is I really bring them into the business. So I mean I bring the team members and the people in the company into the business. They're helping make decisions, they're part of of the process. I'm very transparent with them on what we're doing, why we're doing it and and kind of you know how their input on it. Again, I don't treat them like I'm the boss and you're going to do it, I'm going to like I don't do that. It's they're. They're very much a part of the business.

Mike: 16:20

So I think inclusion is the first piece. The the second piece is that I just I spend time with them. I think overall, you can drown yourself in meetings, but it's the value of the meeting that matters. So I try to spend a lot of time meeting with them, learning about them, talking about them, giving them a peek behind the curtain as to what's going on in my world, so that they personally know who I am and vice versa. So really getting to know them, even though it's virtual, I mean it works. We're building relationships that way. And then, outside of that, I just find ways to show appreciation, whether that's financially, with little bonuses or things like that, or almost everybody on my team. They're getting gifts, they're getting a CyberDogs welcome kit when they first start with CyberDogs swag and gear and trinkets. And I'm just making sure I'm very intentional with including them in the process so that over time they feel like it's not just about Mike and his success, like Mike owns the business and, yeah, fine.

Claude: 17:21

And.

Mike: 17:21

I get the paycheck. Yeah, but I want them to feel like it's our business. Everybody gets a piece of this. So throughout the year I kind of set reminders for myself to make sure I'm doing those things and don't forget and don't take them for granted.

Claude: 17:35

And I love because it goes back to again what you said at the beginning about caring, and it's so important.

Mike: 17:42

Yeah, and you know it's cool. I think it's easy for me to take pride in my own brand because it's my brand, but it's it's even cooler to see them take pride in our brand. Yeah, yeah, we haven't quite cracked the code on where this is all going, but, like we talk about it internally, that marketing, websites, branding, like the things that we lead with as far as services these are just vehicles that we're using to build this brand. That is cyberdogs. Cyberdogs is not just a website building company. Cyberdogs is its own thing and we just using to build this brand. That is CyberDogs. Cyberdogs is not just a website building company. Cyberdogs is its own thing and we just happen to build websites.

Jessica: 18:31

I know you said that you're very choiceful in who your clients are. I'm curious do you ever have it where you almost become work besties with them, or are there ways that you can kind of help foster? How has that come to be?

Mike: 18:46

Again, I think it's investing some time. I think part of it might be the I don't know if it's the Midwest nice thing or what. I have clients that I would have a hard time imagining running my business without them as a client and I would have a hard time imagining that they could run their business without me, not just because of the services we provide, but because we're collaborators between our two businesses. Not only do we talk about their business and whatnot, but sometimes we hop on a Zoom and just talk through entrepreneurial struggles or whatever it is. But we're really connecting on more of a personal level.

Mike: 19:17

And I have clients that are semi-local to me that I connect with. Once a month we go out and have lunch or when you know how that goes. We're sitting there eating our tacos or whatever it is, and all of a sudden they're asking me how the wife and kids are and how's your son doing in college, and all of a sudden these conversations just go in a lot more personal direction. So it happens pretty naturally and I'm okay with it. I think it's about keeping it human. It will benefit you over time.

Jessica: 19:42

Yeah, the power of connection is not just the transactional element, it's really getting to know each other. And when you do start working together, you have that rapport already and it's so much easier to get things across.

Mike: 19:54

Right and it cements the relationship. Without that connection and to keep it very surface, level and superficial, when tough times hit, you're going to be the first one on the chopping block. So be personal and get to know people and really you know, it's not, it's not like a trick we're doing, it's just you know, we just care, you know, that's it there's a difference, right, it's because you're being authentic, you know, there's the trickery, but you can see clearly.

Claude: 20:22

That is in fact about caring and being authentic. If they always say you get what you sow, I really believe that, like you said before, karma as well.

Mike: 20:34

The most important is being authentic. I think it's great when not only I can provide that for them, but I mean I get a lot of benefit from those connections on their side, Whether it's advice they're giving me or maybe it's an introduction or a referral that they've made for me. So it's the value and the true cost of being kind and being relationship-based. I couldn't even put a number to it. I know it's positive, but I couldn't put a number to it.

Claude: 20:57

No, definitely.

Jessica: 20:58

I went back to that quote that you made about how success really comes from you connecting with the hearts of the people that you're trying to help. It made me think about this is translatable across any industry. So it kind of made me think about this is kind of translatable across any industry, but specifically for an entrepreneur, this way of working is really more about connecting with the people from the heart. Is there a story or some, maybe an approach you can share where it did completely transform or change a relationship you had?

Mike: 21:26

I'll give you a few examples because I've led people over the years. You know, when I started out in leadership, it was very much like from the textbook, because not only was I new to leadership, but I was reading leadership books and, like even my superiors at the time are like this is how you do it and there was a lot of just overall leadership mechanics that led the way and as a young leader, I could tell when it worked and when it didn't. And I'm like this is how do you sell this? Like this is ridiculous because you're not doing it from the heart and you're not doing it with intention, and I honestly think like the people you're leading can smell whether or not you believe in it as you're delivering it. Like I just identified right out of the gate. I got to customize this a little bit in my own way, or I'm not going to succeed at this because it's too robotic and if it's, me if it's just me dropping the hammer on these people because you know, corporate says so.

Mike: 22:19

So as I was reading leadership books and learning leadership and kind of trying to study the art of I was always trying to figure out the translation of how. How can I do this mic way? How can I do this nicely? How can I do this in a way that connects? How can I do this in a way that you know helps them understand the intention behind it? Because sometimes being led you don't fully understand, you don't know what the score is, you're just know you're being told to do something. So I wanted transparency. I just had to noodle through all that and learn and I'm not saying once I made that realization. I was good at it at that point, but I at least was on the right path.

Mike: 22:56

And there are instances then along the way where I remember one guy that worked for me. Him and I were really good personal friends, but when it came to corporate and the man and success and how to navigate that world, he was a total rebel in every way. He just he hated it, he did not want to embrace it and it really affected our relationship as friends because I'm like dude, like you're picking the wrong battles. I'm just trying to get him to follow along because there were things, you know, maybe there were times he had a point, but there were other times where he was fighting just to fight and it was like this is a waste of time for everybody. You know, eventually, by the time it was all said and done, we weren't friends anymore.

Mike: 23:33

Not that we had any kind of big blowout or anything, but I think there was just enough instances where he didn't feel like I was on his team anymore because I was pushing the corporate agenda and I was trying to do my job and I effectively slipped into this role of management, the man. So by the time it was all over, I don't think he would consider me a friend and vice versa, and it was kind of a bummer to me. But I took that experience and thought how can I avoid that next time? How can I help? What could I have done to help him understand what I was doing? And maybe how could I have better understood what he was doing? And I failed him in a way. There was something going on there where I couldn't quite figure out what he wanted, and vice versa.

Jessica: 24:13

Yeah.

Mike: 24:14

And then there's other instances where I wanted somebody to succeed more than they wanted to succeed for themselves and I had to learn to recognize like there was another guy that I again I thought we were really good friends and I just I couldn't figure out why he couldn't succeed. Because he was super talented, like he had all the tools, he had more tools in his toolbox than most people, but he didn't want it. I was stuck on the idea that why don't you want it? In hindsight now I look back and I think, well, he didn't want it, so why was I pushing?

Mike: 24:44

that on him so hard.

Jessica: 24:45

Which I think goes back to your different approach of if you get to know the person you might have figured out a different way to communicate, or they just weren't in the role that made sense for their tool.

Mike: 24:55

Yeah, and letting that be okay. I throw it in a sports analogy. Some people they get jazzed up grabbing rebounds on the basketball court versus scoring, or they really like defense. If they like what they like, throw gas on that.

Mike: 25:10

Figure out how to get the best out of them and the things that they like. Don't try to make them something. They're not From those relationships, and I could probably give you 10 more, but these successes and failures that I lived through with these people and in my leadership world, they just changed me. I had to eventually stop and look in the mirror sometimes and go what am I not getting about this? You know I can't possibly go through this process thinking I'm right all the time. Can't? I just can't.

Jessica: 25:37

Or that you just do it because that's the way we've always been told, Right. So I think you taking the stock and understanding. Okay, they're questioning because I can't even answer why.

Mike: 25:47

But what I would say to that, though, is look at how ineffective it is. So like this idea of we've always done it this way, ok, but did you stop and look at how ineffective things are? I'm not saying some of it doesn't work, but somewhere in this process you could very easily identify a handful of areas where that rarely works. Then quit doing it, find a different way, but most of the time, you don't get. You don't get to question it, and that's where I think something flipped in my head, where it's like I'm not saying it's wrong, but if it's not working, I need to find out why it's not working and I need to change it.

Jessica: 26:17

Yeah, and well, I think what you're describing is similar to, I think, a lot of our experiences where, when you first start as a manager, in many cases you're managing people that were your peers originally or close to, and you're doing it because that was the leadership book that was handed to you or the training classes that you were told of how to lead, and then you pretty quickly, on the fly, learn that's not going to work. You might be created this community cyber dog. If you were to give advice to anyone who's either an entrepreneur already or thinking of making the leap, what would be your recommendation or guidance to them?

Mike: 26:56

I would give a couple things. I think for one you have to surround yourself with the right people, and it doesn't necessarily mean people that agree with you and it doesn't necessarily mean people that kiss your butt. You have to find people that inspire you. You have to find people that you can trust. You have to find people that you aspire to be like. You have to find people that are ahead of you in the process and it sounds cliche, but you have to find people that are smarter than you, and you'd have to be very mindful as you pull these people in and and don't expect them to check all the boxes. That's one of the things I learned from the corporate side is we would hire these people and we had 10 requirements we wanted them to have, which completely diminished and limited our pool of options. What if they had really strong six? What if they had six out of 10, but they were really strong in the six and then we found somebody else to fill the other four. My math is mathing, but wouldn't that just be smarter? You know like, yeah, that's how I looked at it. You just have to become somebody who studies people and figures out the gaps, and if you find somebody that fills that gap. Bring them in. It's very intentional, but I think it's. You just have to be aware Not everybody's the same, I guess, is what I'm getting at, so to really see them for their talents and their flaws and figuring out how they can fit. If they've got the right mindset and if they're checking so many boxes, they're worth it. So give them a chance.

Mike: 28:21

And I would say the biggest thing and I talk about this all the time with my clients is that you got to believe in what you're doing. You know I meet a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners that it's just a job for them. You know they quit whatever they were doing and now it's well, this is my life for the next 20 years. They're not believing in it. You know, and I think that belief is a bottomless gas tank that can get you through the tough times. It can help you see the vision, it can help you love your brand forever. Like that, belief is huge. So, not to sound too corny, I think that's really important because when you believe it and you have that energy, it migrates the belief of the people and if they don't believe, then you're in big trouble. So they got to come with you on that ride. So belief is huge and you got to convince yourself of it. You know people talk about confidence. Well, confidence can be faked, belief can't.

Jessica: 29:12

That's accurate. You can see through people if the belief isn't there. Like you commented, it was very enlightening really.

Claude: 29:20

You know to understand this side also are very personal and caring and in a business it's so refreshing, especially from a corporate world, and I think that more people should have that. That's how you can retain people and trust people and as much as having a better time working with people and having this community, which goes back just to our work besties. The caring of people is so important because we are human beings at the end of the day and we need this relationship.

Mike: 29:51

And I would throw out there too that benefits of that approach and WorkBesties is the success and the benefits that come from that are a byproduct of the intent. We don't do anything like that because we think it's a best business practice or ROI tracking on being nice and being kind and trying to really be good humans in our business. We just know and believe that if we do that the rest of it will take care of itself, and it has. I don't have any other reason to believe that it doesn't turn into ROI, that I really can't tell you how it turns into ROI. I just know that.

Jessica: 30:26

I mean, you kind of did, though, when you talked about you've got low turnover.

Mike: 30:30

Yeah, I mean, I can like those connections Definitely.

Jessica: 30:34

There's other examples of companies that do have high retention and it does go back to. They're empowered to be the owners of the brand and work together, and it's less to your point.

Claude: 30:43

There's no boss, there's like communities that work on things, but we can even just look in our relationship with at work, right. But we can even just look in our relationship with at work, right. How was your reaction? Versus, like, a manager that was forceful and very like autoregnatic, versus a manager that was more cool. So more or less you wanted to work for that person to make them happy, but not as like just because you loved working with them. So it wasn't from being the boss, the big man, but also because you just enjoy them.

Mike: 31:21

Yeah Well, I think that's part of it. It's a byproduct of you want to succeed for the collective you want to succeed for the group and I think and you enjoy it too.

Jessica: 31:30

You tend to enjoy it more because you feel comfortable asking Like I'm struggling so I can ask the person. I don't have any fear of it. There's just so many added benefits to having care be such a high priority in an organization, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I'm telling you, mike, one day I'm going to come back to you and I'm going to be like these are the ways to check your stats.

Mike: 31:49

Well, if you want help with that study, let me know. I would love I would do that.

Jessica: 31:56

Awesome, Mike. We so appreciate you being on here. For those that are not following Mike, he has quite a social media presence and we highly recommend you follow him on Instagram. He's at Cyber Dogs Marketing, and you also have your podcast, which is available everywhere Brand Retro with CyberDogs.

Mike: 32:15

And you can find it on our website, but also we have a dedicated website which is BrandRetrocom.

Jessica: 32:20

Fantastic. Oh, and we can't forget about your Dog Days apparel.

Mike: 32:24

Yeah, Dog Days apparel is kind of like the first cousin of CyberDogs. We just needed a creative outlet to kind of put some cool vibes out there and do some small town design.

Jessica: 32:36

Fantastic designs, they're really cool. Definitely guys follow him, and if you like this episode, don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a rating. Reviews.

Claude: 32:44

Thank you, Mike.

Jessica: 32:45

Yeah.

Mike: 32:47

Thank you both for having me. I appreciate it.

Jessica: 32:49

Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break room, rescuing each other from endless meetings or just sending that perfectly timed meme. Having a work bestie is like having your own personal hype squad.

Claude: 33:02

So keep lifting each other, laughing through the chaos and, of course, thriving. Until next time, stay positive, stay productive and don't forget to keep supporting each other. Work besties.