Work Besties Who Podcast

From Struggles to Success: Alan Lazaros and Kevin Palmieri of Next Level University⁩ Journey

• Work Besties Who Podcast • Season 2 • Episode 54

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This week, Jess & Claude are joined by Alan Lazaros and Kevin Palmieri from Next Level University—two long-time friends and business partners who have recorded over 2,000 episodes and built a movement around personal development and daily growth.

Tune in as we dive into:

  • How their friendship is the foundation of everything they’ve built.
  • Why being vulnerable and open is essential in leadership.
  • The daily grind of content creation—and how they’ve stayed consistent for nearly a decade.
  • What’s changed (and what hasn’t) in podcasting since 2015.
  • Their mission to help others grow by 1% every day.
  • The importance of having a bestie who gives honest feedback and lifts you up.
  • How they’re giving back through a charity for single parents.

If you’re building with a bestie or dreaming of launching something with impact—this episode will remind you that the journey is better (and more powerful) when you do it together.

🎙️ Now streaming on Apple, Spotify, and all major podcast platforms.

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Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband

Jess:

Hello WorkBesties. Today we have Alan and Kevin, and their story is a testament to the strength of their friendship, as well as a shared purpose. But what key lesson did they learn about balancing personal growth as well as maintaining that supportive friendship? You're going to have to stay to the end to find that out.

Claude:

Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess. We are corporate employees by day, entrepreneurs by night and work besties for life.

Jess:

Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up, laugh through the chaos and thrive together in every industry. Work besties Welcome to Work Besties, kevin and Alan. It's so nice to meet you.

Kevin Palmieri:

Thank you so very much for having us. We're excited to chat with dual podcast hosts like we are and dual work besties. Yes, 100%.

Alan Lazaros:

You two know the deal of being work besties. A lot of people told us in the beginning don't do it, it won't work out, and we're very grateful we stuck with it because this is awesome. Thank you so much for having us.

Kevin Palmieri:

Why don't you two talk about how you two started? I was somewhat successful in my corporate America career, but success externally led to a lot of stuff that I was dealing with internally, so I went through some mental health problems. I had some suicidal ideations, ended up starting a podcast. I didn't know anything about podcasting before Alan introduced me to interview style YouTube channels because he had me on his YouTube channel Fell in love with that whole thing. I always wanted to help people. I just never knew how I wanted to do. It Started my podcast. Alan was the first guest that I had Ended up dealing with some suicidal ideations and mental health problems at my job.

Kevin Palmieri:

I left my job in 2018. And then Alan and I partnered up together because he was my mentor at the time. He was the person who knew way more about self-improvement, way more about business. Obviously, I'm taller and better looking than he is, so that has really worked out in my favor over the years. You and Andy Yang yeah, you have to have that, claude, it's very important, right? But we had a very similar thought process of what got us in trouble in life was lack of clarity, it was lack of self-improvement and it was lack of personal development. So if we could bring that to the world through a podcast, that would be the thing that we could do. And now, as of today, we recorded our 2000th episode right before this. So we've been doing this since 2018, full time since 2017.

Jess:

We have a podcast all about self-improvement. Thank you, I appreciate it very much. Huge kudos for those that are not in podcasting, which the number that don't even make it to 50, is pretty astronomical, the fact that you're at 2000.

Kevin Palmieri:

Wow, Well, I think it speaks to how lucky we are to have each other. I like to think that I would have gotten here without Alan. There's no way I would have. I probably wouldn't have gotten past 15 or 20. Alan, I think, would have been way more successful alone than I would have been successful alone, but we've definitely helped each other. Stay consistent, for sure.

Claude:

That reminds me of Jess and I Like Jess, I'm sure would be more successful by herself than me, by myself.

Kevin Palmieri:

So you're me, Claude.

Jess:

That's nice. I'm Kevin. It's the yin and the yang we need each other to help. Exactly 2,000 episodes. What was the podcasting world like eight years ago?

Kevin Palmieri:

There were far less podcasts. The whole video thing wasn't really a thing. Nobody was doing virtual interviews. So, yeah, I think there was a lot of people just kicking the tires on what this newish thing could be. The thing that was beneficial for us is not a lot of people were taking it that seriously. We started, we went all in, we were traveling to interview people, we were spending lots of money that we didn't have. We were doing all this stuff, and I think the other important piece is 2017, 2018, it was, I won't say, a lot easier to get big guests, but there weren't as many people reaching out to them.

Kevin Palmieri:

Now people are just getting bombarded with messages, so I think the playing field was a little bit more level back then.

Alan Lazaros:

Did I miss anything, alan? I think social media was different back then. For sure, instagram was still really really useful and it's not not useful Now. We still use it. We use Instagram, facebook, whatsapp. We use LinkedIn as well, but Instagram was, I mean you could could DM an author and get. They'd get back to you that day.

Alan Lazaros:

Now again, I think part of that was cause I had a following and I was in fitness and I was a fitness model. I mean, we were getting DMS from listeners regularly, constantly, and we didn't realize at the time that that wasn't normal right. So we went from the first year we only did 1,054 listens to the second year we did like 25,000. Our growth rate was nuts back then. Now we're much more successful 175 countries, 2,000 episodes. But it's definitely a different game now, for sure.

Claude:

So it was easier to really establish yourself back then and then grow at the same time as the podcast world was growing.

Kevin Palmieri:

Back then people weren't starting podcasts to make them into businesses. Some people were, because there's always going to be people ahead of the curve on that. But most people were like, let me see what happens with this. So I think the failure rate back then it's high today, but it was different back then. It was just if you could be consistent and you were committed, you were already going to get ahead of most people. There's two of us, so if you're going to work for 16 hours, we're going to work for 16 hours times two. So it's going to be really hard to keep up with that.

Claude:

So, for our listeners, what is the name of your podcast?

Kevin Palmieri:

It is called Next.

Alan Lazaros:

Level University, next Level U. Next Level University, next Level U. Pun intended, so I'm Alan, version 3.6. I'm 36, even though I look 15. Kevin is 35. Kevin version 3.5. That joke. I used to say I'm hoping to hit puberty at 37, but now I got a little mustache going.

Claude:

Can't say that anymore.

Alan Lazaros:

Yeah yeah, thank you. First mustache at 36. Seriously, it was a big deal for me, but anyways. So Next Level University, it's 1% improvement in your pocket, heart-driven, but no BS. Holistic self-improvement for dream chasers it's anyone who has an aspiration or a dream, who wants to get to the next level of their life love, health and wealth. So self-improvement in your pocket, from anywhere on the planet, completely free. It's on the deepest level. It's Kevin and I are the male role models we never had growing up. I think that's the deeper purpose underneath it, because we both grew up without fathers. But I think that it's that 1% improvement per day thing of just you need to be inspired, motivated and educated a little bit each day. You're not going to change your whole world overnight, but you can get a little better each day and if you do the math on that I'm a big engineering math guy it changes everything. I mean our life is night and day, compared to when we both had what we call our quarter life crises.

Alan Lazaros:

Kevin mentioned suicidal ideation. I had my car accident and so we both grew up in the same town. Both grew up without fathers. My father passed away when I was two. His father he met when he was 27 for the first time, when we were both in our mid-20s. He had suicidal ideation, so he faced mortality and I got in that car accident. My dad died in a car. That just flipped the script for me.

Alan Lazaros:

After that we reconnected. We were friends in middle school. He didn't like me in high school and I didn't like that, he didn't like me, so we didn't get along. And then we reconnected in our mid-20s and we started spending Father's Days together Every Father's Day. We have been doing that ever since, so we've spent every Father's Day together for eight years. We used to fish. Now we have a charity for single parents, children of single parents, called the Next Level Hope Foundation. But essentially we just 1% improvement every single day. That's our motto and we are trying to lead by example and help people grow a little bit each day, not just in success and wealth, but in health and fitness and in their intimate relationship as well.

Alan Lazaros:

Because we were both broke as a joke and single as hell back then and really wildly unfulfilled.

Kevin Palmieri:

So we were in really good shape, though at the time we were in really good shape, so notice how I left that one out.

Alan Lazaros:

Drop that in, by the way, that's the only thing that hasn't gotten better, to be honest, and we do an episode every day.

Kevin Palmieri:

I know you asked about the frequency of an episode. Every day. Every day Christmas, birthdays, holidays, sunday, it doesn't matter. There's an episode dropping every day.

Jess:

And do you guys pre-record, or are they on every day?

Kevin Palmieri:

Monday was the day we record. We try on mondays, what it's called marathon mondays. We would try to record seven episodes. I'd come out of the office and go see my wife and she said how many did you get done? Just one, yeah. We had a lot of a lot of business talks today, so we used to batch them. We would try to do it all in one sitting. Now today's friday, so we recorded tomorrows and Sundays right before this.

Claude:

Content is always so hard right, Especially at one a day. So how do you keep up with staying fresh and relatable, always going with your theme of that 1%?

Alan Lazaros:

The benefits of being holistic self-improvement is that we health, wealth and love. While that seems narrow, we get to talk about kind of whatever we want. There's a lot that can fit into each of those right. So we can talk fitness, we can talk consistency, community. We can talk about a lot of things. So that's number one. We're narrow enough to be meaningful, but wide enough to where we can actually do an episode every day.

Alan Lazaros:

What does our listener need? What do we want to talk about? Because if we don't have passion, it's not going to flow and what's going to actually be clicked on? So those are sort of the three, based on our understanding of our listener now, and that's evolved a lot over the years, obviously. So Kevin and I are growing and Alan, version 3.6, and Kevin, version 3.5, are not passionate about the same things we are. Self-improvement is the through line, so that's never changed. But we're both much more in business right now.

Alan Lazaros:

So we have to, we have to try to take okay, what are you reading? All right, what am I reading? All right, I'm reading this book. Okay, what's the concept? Boom, boom, boom. So we try to keep it fresh and that's actually why we don't batch, because we've tried we've literally tried to batch 14 episodes. So he went to Scotland last year. We had to batch I think 21 episodes is the most we've ever batched and it was hard because it wasn't as fresh. We also and I got to be very transparent about this kind of have no life I'm joking. We work really hard and we work six days a week front facing, and then we still work on Sundays too. So our model doesn't work for everybody and we're definitely workhorses that came from nothing. So that's a part of it too that we got to be just transparent.

Jess:

You commented about. You've got a lot of clients. Do you try and take what's going on in your life with these clients and make that a part of the main focus?

Alan Lazaros:

Constantly.

Jess:

Okay, so that kind of keeps it fresh too, I would assume.

Kevin Palmieri:

We're very different. We are polar opposites, but very similar. It's very strange how this whole thing has worked out. I'll have a story and then I'll think like what could I do a podcast episode on that?

Kevin Palmieri:

How could I make that an episode? So I was going shopping one time. It was around the holiday season. I went to Target in December Worst idea ever of all time, don't do that. But there was a guy helping me and he's like yeah, let me run to the back and grab your stuff. And he was very clearly overwhelmed, he was very clearly overworked, he was stressed out. There probably had been some people that weren't super nice to him. And he came over and when he went to give me my bags, we like held hands for a second because I was trying to grab the bags and he's like oh, I'm so sorry'm so sorry, man. I was like, hey, you're good. Like thank you so much for your help, I appreciate it so much.

Kevin Palmieri:

And we formulated an episode of like humility out of that. Is there any reason for me to further make that person's life slash day hard? No, it's not that big of a deal. What are we doing here? So I usually come with a story and then we'll make an episode. Alan usually comes with a lesson and then we'll make an episode from that. So I'm story first, alan is lesson first. So as long as I'm experiencing life. We'll have a story. Alan's always learning, so we'll always have something.

Kevin Palmieri:

Yeah, it has to be something that we actually want to talk about. We used to be the podcast who I would do research and SEO, like what titles work, and we don't do that as much now. I think it's very important in the beginning, but now it's like I'm going to title it this because that's what we talked about, and is it the best, most search engine friendly one? Probably not, but I want to make sure that we're doing it in the way that we want to do it now, more than playing the game, and that's been a big shift for us.

Jess:

That's an area where you can get to and you've built quite the community.

Kevin Palmieri:

Yeah, don't do that in the beginning.

Jess:

All you podcasters, please note build your community first.

Kevin Palmieri:

Yeah, you've got to learn that stuff and see what works and see what doesn't, and we're privileged, through work, in things that we can test now versus in the beginning.

Alan Lazaros:

Go ahead. Alan. I'm starting BGU, so NLU is Next Level University Podcast. Growth University is his podcast because he's the podcast guy. And then I have Business Growth University starting this year because I'm the business guy, and so we call them listeners, longers and business owners. So listeners want to learn from us, longers want to build their own podcasts in their own communities, and then business owners are people who, like us, are screwed if they don't generate revenue, and so I coach the business owners. Some business owners want to start a podcast for marketing and branding. Some podcasters need to build a business, otherwise they go out of business. At this stage, I think Kevin's mastered the title so much and so well that he can real quick do things.

Jess:

Do what the rest of us do and just search the SEO terms.

Alan Lazaros:

Yeah, which, in the beginning, like I think his brain is really good at going okay, this is going to land with our audience, this is what will land with SEO and this is what we know. Okay, boom. And half the time I don't even agree with the title, but I also know that I'm an engineer and no one cares about what I care about. We figured out he's good with people and I'm good with systems and structure and metrics, and every business needs both. By the way, if I can give a little side tangent, every business needs to be really, really, really good at these two things systems, metrics, structures, discipline, boom boom, organization. That's me, definitely. And then the other one is creative and with people. So kevin's really good with people. Everyone likes him, nobody likes me. He's good with people and he's really good and very, very creative. I'm the metrics and system. I mean he tracks 18 metrics and 19 habits I think 18 as of today. But that's not because of him, it's because-.

Kevin Palmieri:

Yeah, and I don't want to do that. I don't want to, but I have to.

Alan Lazaros:

Right. So the train tracks are set up for success and then the creativity. He flows within those train tracks.

Jess:

A topic that we in the WorkFesty platform talk about a lot. You both are a yin and a yang right. You compliment each other, and it feels like the same thing is really necessary in a business partnership too. So, because you guys are friends, what are some challenges, or maybe even hacks you find are helpful because of your friendship with businesses?

Alan Lazaros:

I'm going to make this sound wrong, I'm going to just own it. So I'm a type A. I got all my awards in the background. I'm a type A. I always have been. I've been hiding it and too cowardly to say it, but I always have been. So make sure your yin is yanging. So I'm not as creative. I'm an engineer Everything's numbers, everything's metrics, everything's structure. That's who I am and I think business needs that. But it also needs creative and a people person.

Alan Lazaros:

Kevin and I are polar opposites in our thinking. He's short-term, I'm long-term, actively paranoid and humble. I'm long-term, optimist and we've switched in certain situations, especially when it comes to people. But ultimately we have a yin and a yang and that's great. But one of the things that is similar is our core values.

Alan Lazaros:

We both came from very little. We both were broke as a joke when we were younger and I told him this. I said, kev, I never could work with you if you had any level of entitlement. We are earners to our core and if you don't have humility and work ethic and you want big rewards for minimal effort, you just will never like us. Because we aren't that way.

Alan Lazaros:

We have a culture in our company and in our blood, for lack of better phrasing just our upbringing of earn every dollar. There is no quick fix, there is no shortcut, there is no know your value and charge 10 grand even though you've never done this before type of stuff inside of us. Like we both started coaching for free and then it was 50 bucks a week and then it was 75 and then it was up from there and so we built this, coming up on a half million dollar business, which is awesome, but like we started from nothing, literally and figuratively. And I think the core value that we have in common is impact first, money second Okay, you can't have money last because you'll go out of business. But impact is first Heart driven, but no BS, self improvement. And I would say we're similar in our core but we're very different in our thinking.

Kevin Palmieri:

I have an answer, and it's an answer in the direction you wanted it, jess, because that sounded supremely positive, which it is for the most part. I'll come to Alan and I'll be like brother, are you sitting down? I have the best idea maybe you've ever heard in your entire life and it's maybe the dumbest idea that has ever been spoken audibly, ever, ever. Sometimes my creativity gets the best of me and I will do things that are not necessarily best for momentum, but it's like this seems like a really good opportunity. Why aren't we doing this? We could have an ice cream truck. Why don't we do that? Everybody needs ice cream.

Kevin Palmieri:

And Alan's like Kev holistic self-improvement for dream chases. Okay, cool. So I'm a pain in the butt that way for sure. Alan is essentially my boss. I know it might not seem like that, but he is and he's the CEO and he's the leader for a reason. Sometimes that sucks when it goes from like we're supposed to record from 6 to 7 pm and then it goes from 7 to 8 pm. It's like that kind of sucks and very quickly I get over it because I'm way more grateful for the benefits than that slight pain in the butt inconvenience. So I think, without the upside the downside would kind of stink. But without the downside you wouldn't get the upside.

Jess:

Right.

Kevin Palmieri:

As long as the benefits outweigh whatever else. You're dealing with and you have gratitude. I have gratitude for the fact that Alan is such a great leader. I would have crashed into the iceberg, backed up and crashed into the iceberg again. We would be in trouble if I was running this. But you should have ice for your ice cream. I would Thank you See A lot of people. I really like that positive mindset Smell ice can you? That's what I need.

Alan Lazaros:

A little.

Kevin Palmieri:

Titanic reference. Over the last eight years, I think we've just we just have gotten to learn each other and we know each other at a really deep level. And you know, I know Alan doesn't like when I talk about him as the leader, the great leader that he is. He gets nervous. That's my job to tell people about that, because he won't say it himself. So, yeah, we have a wonderful thing, but wonderful things do come with inconveniences at times. At what point in life are you not going to have some inconveniences? At least they're the higher quality ones, as of today, Claude, I saw you grinning ear to ear.

Jess:

I want to hear your perspective Again.

Kevin Palmieri:

I'm going to say I'm kidding, I figured, Claude, I figured. When you started smiling I was like that's.

Claude:

Except that Jess also has the relationship with the people as well. Right, depends. Yeah, I'm the Kevin. Jess is really the organizer, the number person.

Jess:

She calls me, miss Bossy, that's what.

Claude:

I get.

Jess:

I'm called.

Claude:

CEO. So you're lucky. No, I'm saying CEO. No, no, I would say CEO. It's actually funny, because last time we were having drinks and something came up, I'm like, yeah, you're bossy. Since then she takes it. She's like there's bossy here, but thank God for Jess, because if it was just me, we'd be nowhere. I would still be on my couch sending each other memes.

Alan Lazaros:

It's going to be very uncomfortable for you to allow her to say that right. For the longest time, I wanted to save Kevin from admitting some of those things, but that's true humility, that's vulnerability and that's courage. The truth is, kevin was going to be successful, but he wasn't going to be this successful, and you're not really allowed to say that socially, which is why everyone doesn't like me.

Jess:

Or it wouldn't be as fun.

Alan Lazaros:

Well, it definitely wouldn't be as fun, he's hilarious, I wouldn't be as successful.

Kevin Palmieri:

I mean I guarantee this ice cream truck thing could take off right. It could Next level ice cream, it's true.

Alan Lazaros:

So one thing that I really want to make as clear as I can, because I think this is a golden nugget that I would have wanted and I'm going to give it to you just I had kevin rate me from zero to ten on a list of intimidation signs of an intimidating character I'm too scared to do that.

Alan Lazaros:

There's 30 character traits I can send them to, and he gave me the lowest score I got on. Any of the 30 is an eight, and so it was. 9.5 was the average. I added them all up in an average. One of the things that I'll share with everybody is that everyone I've ever coached I coached 25 people currently and it's been hundreds over the years and I've been coaching for mentoring for 10 years, coaching for thousands and thousands of hours. I have them all tracked. Mentoring for 10 years, coaching for eight, thousands and thousands of hours. I have them all tracked and I'm not saying that to brag. I'm saying that so that you know I'm not just talking.

Alan Lazaros:

The thing that I've found is that everyone is better at one thing or the other. So you are either really good at success and you have a lot of self-belief, and you're really good at systems and structure and success and organization type A, what's known as conscientiousness in the Hexaco personality test, which Jess probably is or you're really good at relationships. Now, a lot of people who are type A. We learn how to chameleon and how to dim ourselves to try to get along with people, but we intimidate the hell out of people when we are our true selves. So we basically usually shrink and we pretend not to believe in ourselves. We make fun of ourselves all the time and it makes us socially accepted and it makes us feel like we belong. But then behind the scenes, we're just like let's go, baby, let's do it Right. See, it's resonating.

Jess:

This is literally me every day.

Alan Lazaros:

This is a story that I think will make this land better than I can ever have articulated in the past. Kevin and I interviewed someone named Stephen Kotler, so he wrote a book called the Art of Impossible and this was back in 2019. And Kevin and I interviewed him for, I think, episode six. And around that time, every Father's Day we would spend together and we'd go fishing and there was this Father's Day sort of family barbecue that we were at where I used to live and Kev said dude, I feel like I belong at the barbecue. I don't feel like I belong with Steven Kotler.

Alan Lazaros:

Steven Kotler, peak performance, the art of impossible. I mean heat flow. I mean it's the research collective of just type A's, basically super achievers, how to do the impossible it's never been done. The Michael Phelps of the world. And I said, kev, I don't feel like I belong here at all. I mean, stephen Kotler and I were like kids in a candy store talking peak performance, and for us that was a really big moment because that was when Kevin and I realized we were trying to be like each other and we were never going to win at that game. I wanted to be like, I was jealous of how likable this dude is. Everyone loves Kev. We'd give the same speech I'm telling you mine was better and everyone would love him and hate me.

Jess:

It totally feels like my life.

Alan Lazaros:

Right and it's like what I added more value. This was more valuable. Speech Doesn't matter, right? He's a likable guy. He's relatable and likable. I'm not relatable or likable, so I have to just lean into that and be okay with it, because I'm a statistical anomaly. I'm an engineering thinker and I'm very, very rare. The point is, kev was afraid to not be respected and not be admired for being an achiever, and I was afraid to be hated my entire life. So we both had to face our deepest fear. His deepest fear was not being good enough. My deepest fear was basically being ostracized socially because I don't relate well people. When I try to relate, they can tell it's not authentic I can fit in with people and make them feel comfortable.

Jess:

I don't feel authentic they don't notice it, but it's amazing because you're just jealous.

Claude:

You're still, you're likable I mean.

Alan Lazaros:

But how do you know that that likability isn't manufactured by her dimming? A lot of the things that I've said here are not likable things to say and that takes tremendous social courage. So Kevin's needed competence courage. He needed to do the speech, write the resume, do the cover letter, try the thing I needed to have social courage. Social courage to. For me, vulnerability is actually owning who I am and owning the contrast of who I am. It's very scary and I know that's resonating. Jess, you know what? I'm not that great and you know what. And he is great. That's the truth. But he needs to own that. He's not type A.

Claude:

Is it really not like you're afraid of not being great? It's you not believing that you're great? Because it's really different, because you can be great but not believing it?

Kevin Palmieri:

I think for me it's both. So when I was young, my dad left and I think there was a part of me that internalized that as well. If I was better, smarter, whatever he would have stayed around Again. I'm a baby, so that's kind of out of my control, but I didn't know that at the time. So that became the record that played in my head is I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm never going to be successful. Nobody in my family had a college education. We were broke. There wasn't a lot of hope. It just didn't seem like there was a lot of hope.

Kevin Palmieri:

In high school I was really good at baseball Claude All-star captain of the team but I thought I just got luckier more often than other people. So I had this record of I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough. I get lucky, I guess when it comes to things. No, my biggest fear is failure. My biggest fear is going and giving a speech and making a mistake or bombing. That's like my deep fear.

Kevin Palmieri:

Now I think I'm getting to the place where I feel fairly yeah, I feel very competent in this Like this is well within my comfort zone, but I still have anxiety around things that I'm doing for the first time. I would guarantee that I did more research of you guys than Alan did, because I like the certainty. I need to know who I'm talking to. I need to know what you do in the world. I need to look at your social medias. That's as much about trying to be a consummate professional as it is. It gives me certainty and confidence in what I'm doing. So my deepest fear is rejection not being good enough, not being smart enough. I still deal with that to this day.

Claude:

Judging subject what do you think of our Instagram?

Kevin Palmieri:

Literally.

Jess:

Claude leads the Instagram, in case you're wondering.

Kevin Palmieri:

Claude, the first thing I thought is they're really good at marketing. That was the first thing I thought, like you guys are really good at marketing, your page does a really good job of promoting the podcast by indirectly promoting the podcast. So yeah, I was pleasantly surprised. As of today, I've been on 985 other podcasts. You're in the top 5% of social medias I've seen.

Claude:

Oh, we got a ton of time Strong word night Jess, it's together problem, Strong word nice, jess, it's together, it's not just me right. Strong word, both of you.

Jess:

Yeah, we do it.

Alan Lazaros:

One thing if I can extend an olive branch is Kevin is better at social media than I am, because Kevin understands people and the way they think more than I do. So, jess, the fears that he talked about, fear of failure like, we don't have as much of a fear of failure, we just think, okay, we'll just fail forward, fail forward, fail forward.

Jess:

Keep going and check the numbers Exactly. Okay, this will work.

Alan Lazaros:

We have a fear of success and give me a minute, okay. Whenever we shined, our relationships would suffer, so we've been conditioned to not shine unless someone else is with us. So this is landing, okay.

Jess:

Walk me through that, because that's fascinating to me, because one of the values of us creating this work bestie community is to rely on each other, to raise each other up, which you want to successfully achieve growth, both of you Now not everyone owns a business together, so sometimes it's not going to be as succinct as that, but you would hope of those that do work together or decide to work together, that would be their greatest success in life, and they'd be so Well I think to the yin and yang conversation, to you two's strength, what I've come to understand over years and years of trying to coach and help different types of individuals.

Alan Lazaros:

Some are type A, like you, jess, and what I need to do with you is very different than what I need to do with Kevin. Kevin is not type A. He's not naturally type A. He can do type A behaviors, but he's not naturally an achiever. He doesn't identify. I'm an achiever, jess, you do. You might not say it socially, but you do 100%. The point that I'm making here is we all have a record playing. Kevin's record in his unconscious is I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, it's not going to work out for me, I'm not going to be successful. But if you ask him whether or not he can get along with people, I mean no problem, absolutely, he's the best ever with people. Okay, she's smiling right now. Claude knows the same deal, right? Jess? You feel like you have to change who you are in order to get along with people, and you might not talk about this publicly, so I apologize if I'm hosting you.

Jess:

No, I do, I definitely do.

Alan Lazaros:

So what a Jess does is she squats a thousand pounds behind the scenes when no one's watching and then she pretends she struggles around other people and it's to create belonging, and when in reality you don't actually struggle with self-doubt that much, but that intimidates people. So you like to talk about how you have self-doubt, but what you don't realize is that you actually love failure and you're trying to fail forward and you love getting better and you're never going to stop. So these are just different types of people and it's all based on a core wound. So the record playing in your mind is it's all going to work out. We got this, we can do it. See, look, we got this, we can do it.

Jess:

Yeah, 100% yes.

Alan Lazaros:

However, when it comes to having successful friendships and successful relationships, there's fear there. There's like I don't know. Is this person going to abandon me? Are they going to poison people against me? Are they going to rip me a new one? Am I? I can't let them too close because they're going to rip my heart out.

Alan Lazaros:

So vulnerability for Kevin is stepping on stage, feeling incompetent. Vulnerability for us is telling you that we actually don't struggle with self-doubt that much. That is like a no-fly zone. You cannot say that. I mean the amount of courage I'm probably red right now the amount of courage it takes to say that I don't have a ton of self-doubt. Not like me, arrogant hubris, butthead, right. But other type A's are like hell. Yeah, like Gary Vee is not going to be like what a dick, because Gary Vee has undying self-belief as well. But most people think he's a dick and I understand why, and I'm not for or against Gary Vee, that's not my point. My point is is that the type A super achievers of the world don't understand that most people don't have self-belief and they have a different record playing. The record they have playing determines how they see the world.

Jess:

I don't think I'm type A in total. I am in type A with this business and in certain aspects of my work career, but from a personal life standpoint I'm definitely not the type A person.

Alan Lazaros:

That makes perfect sense.

Jess:

Does it A is?

Alan Lazaros:

mostly career. Yes, right.

Jess:

So do you feel like that means that you could still balance a little bit between, like, I don't think I'm super chameleon, maybe a little at work, but no?

Claude:

Not everything. I feel like, jess, I think like you're real with me.

Alan Lazaros:

Jess, have you ever actually failed at anything that you did long enough? I've given up, so I would consider that a failure. Yeah, so you decided to stop something. Have you ever tried something that you really wanted and actually not achieved it?

Jess:

Yes, I can think of a couple of things, but then I do believe I also just kind of gave up on them, right.

Alan Lazaros:

And again, I know this is very deep stuff, usually type A's. They decide I don't really want to do that anymore, it's not really worth it anymore. They don't actually think they couldn't do it. There's very little Jess believes she can't do unconsciously Right, and this is all in the unconscious.

Alan Lazaros:

None of this is conscious. I don't want to rock you guys' world. The yin and yang. It's a beautiful thing. You guys Claude is naturally more humble, okay, and Jess, you're naturally have a higher self-belief, and that's why Claude is saying that you would have been successful with or without me. But she doesn't necessarily think that same way, and that's okay. The beautiful part about the yin and the yang is that you two are better together because she doesn't have the weaknesses that come with your strengths. Kevin doesn't have the weaknesses that come with my strengths.

Jess:

Like the creativity, like you hit on it, claude, is way more creative than me. I'm more like. These are the numbers we have to hit and how we have to get them.

Alan Lazaros:

Here's some ideas and.

Jess:

I just throw them at her and I'm like which one do you think will work?

Alan Lazaros:

If you research all successful businesses, they have creatives with super achieving metrics and habits, type A modalities of thinking. It's really beautiful when you do the research on this.

Claude:

Yeah, go ahead, Claude you know, what is funny also is that because we work together, hence work besties that's how we started and from that point there was that yin and the yang. Her strength was my weakness. Could have been like relationship that can crush each other with our strengthness, but on the opposite, we were lifting each other up.

Claude:

and how many times just you help me with the whole analytical things and your strength that I do believe that in some way I did help you on other things as well for sure, absolutely no, so that's what I think that it can go both ways again crush each other, or you have this sparkle where you lift each other and you help each other and you make it stronger you become stronger.

Alan Lazaros:

I think that every Jess needs someone who can unconditionally love her, and every Claude needs someone who is a Jess, who believes in her. Oh my God, and that's what you guys are, and that's beautiful and that's super rare.

Claude:

That is true, super rare. I love that.

Alan Lazaros:

Claude, if you unconditionally love Jess in her greatness, she's going to lean into that and that's what your business needs and Jess. Anytime Claude is struggling, just tell her how much you believe in her. Which she does, and that you guys, if you keep that up, you guys got it.

Jess:

We interviewed you so much as you interviewed us today.

Kevin Palmieri:

This is what happens. When Alan connects with someone he's like ah, that person's like me. This is what happens.

Jess:

This has been very educational for us and I do appreciate it. I will say if you're half as good with your clients as you were with us today my goodness, I get why you guys have been podcasting for over 2 000 episodes and have so many clients. This is this is real important stuff that really helps you get to the next level.

Alan Lazaros:

It's very impressive thank you, and thank you for sitting in the discomfort of that.

Kevin Palmieri:

The experience of somebody else doing their thing. There's lessons in that and, Claude, I don't know if you resonate with that or not, but if so, awesome. I added some value on this episode. Also, just for anybody listening.

Jess:

I was the guy I was the guy who talked about the ice cream truck.

Kevin Palmieri:

That was me, so don't forget that Next level ice cream.

Claude:

Kevin, it's true, totally agree.

Jess:

I'm the Kevin where I'm okay to step back, because why do I want to compete on someone that is so good in speeches One thing that we didn't hit on that it definitely is shining through with you two, and it shines through with us as well is when you find that, yin to your yang, you do need to have the respect and ability to be vulnerable, because that's the best person to give you honest feedback and you'll take it Because, to your point, alan, we're the type of people that people come at us with feedback all the time, all the time.

Alan Lazaros:

I don't care, all the time.

Jess:

We'll believe anything you're saying.

Alan Lazaros:

Well, remember, rocks always get thrown at the tallest tree. Compliments usually go down and rocks go up. It's very important and again, if you seem very confident, people are testing it unconsciously. They need to know if you're actually confident. What they don't know is that we're just people trying to serve, and we've been beaten up our whole life.

Alan Lazaros:

I think if I could extend this olive branch. The paradox that we've figured out is that my fear is being the CEO, because I'm afraid of success. Rocks get thrown at the CEO. Okay, jess is resonating. Here's the paradox. You guys ever hear that quote? It is not our darkness but our light that most frightens us.

Jess:

Yes, I've heard it before.

Alan Lazaros:

It is not our darkness but our light that most frightens us, Isn't it? With you, Jess? It does. Okay, here's the paradox. Hev was afraid to be overlooked. I'm actually afraid to be center stage. Seriously, I know it doesn't seem like it because we've evolved, but I used to try to push him to the front of the stage so that the rocks hit him instead of me, but no one throws rocks at him. It's a paradox, right? Okay? So fear of failure, fear of success, whichever one is bigger. You have the opposite problems and you have the opposite strengths. And that's all I'm saying is that Jess is not going to claim CEO. She needs to be given it by you, Claude.

Jess:

And.

Alan Lazaros:

Claude, you've had to learn how Well that's beautiful. That means you're very mature. So Kevin has had to learn how to be a number two, and I've had to learn how to be a number one. My deepest fear is being disliked and villainized. His deepest fear is being not significant and not good enough. So that's all I'm saying is that it's very paradoxical, but that's the paradox, and so we all have to face our deepest fear. We all have to face our deepest fear, and some of us that's failure and not being good enough, and some of us it's being too much. For others, yes, you're more afraid to be too much than you are of not enough, and that's just the truth, and we know that. And again, this is a public medium, so I didn't mean to turn this into a coaching call. I just wanted to extend this for anyone out there watching or listening. Yes, the paradox is facing your deepest fear.

Alan Lazaros:

The problem is, I always say there's two types of people people who are fearful and liars. I'm afraid just not afraid of the same thing as Kev, and we learned that from each other. I never would have known this if it wasn't for Kev and I basically having the humility, courage and vulnerability, to sit in the discomfort of the post-interview with Stephen Kotler going. I don't understand why I was so uncomfortable there Okay, why wasn't I. And I'm uncomfortable at the barbecue. It's like, okay, why wasn't I. So we had these conversations and we've learned so much from each other, and I know you two feel that same way. Again, I think life is very paradoxical and once you identify and face it ironically once Kevin faces his fear of not being good enough, guess who's going to be more than good enough, right? And once I face my fear of being hated, now I can actually have the courage to share what is true for me, which is what I've had to do with this entire episode. Basically.

Jess:

You've done it beautifully.

Alan Lazaros:

Thank you, Jess.

Jess:

All right, I'm going to ask us the last question. If you remember, at the very beginning I said that you would provide for us a key lesson that you learned about balancing your personal growth and maintaining that supportive friendship. What would that be the coaching you would give to your clients or anybody listening to our podcast?

Kevin Palmieri:

Times, the balance that you think you want is not actually the balance that you need. Somebody sitting across from you will be able to see that and say hey brother, I know you wanna like hang out and play video games all day. I don't really think that's what you deeply, deeply want, and I do think you might regret that at some point. So maybe we could re-approach and revisit what balance actually means from a more aligned place. Sometimes we want to villainize the people who give us some of the best advice, so just sit with it. The balance is different for everybody, and sometimes people can see parts of you that you can't see yet.

Alan Lazaros:

That would be my advice, what he's referring to there. If I really want to see Kevin succeed, I want him to win. I'm talking deep in my soul and my heart and my mind. I have to tell him the things that I don't even want to tell him. I didn't want to tell him that. That's how I know it's not for me. I genuinely would be better off not telling you. Well, in the short run, In the short run and since you're my business partner, there's got to be a level of accountability there.

Alan Lazaros:

What he's referring to there is just being vulnerable. It's so vulnerable for me to share my truth with Kevin because I don't want him to feel bad about himself, but I do want to see him win. There's no way this could have worked without courage, humility and vulnerability, especially, especially vulnerability and courage, because we've had many tears, Like seriously, we've had really hard conversations, life life altering conversations. I mean, we're not in this as a hobby. This is our full-time job, this is our career and our calling and we we take it very, very, Take it very very seriously.

Claude:

I love to see this relationship.

Jess:

Alan and Kevin, can you guys remind our audience again where they can find you?

Kevin Palmieri:

If you search Next Level University, you'll find us on all the audio platforms. You'll find us on YouTube. Our website is nextleveluniversecom. And then Alan's Instagram is at A-L-A-Z-A-R-O-S and mine is at Never Quit.

Jess:

Kid.

Kevin Palmieri:

Mine is better than Alan's, for sure.

Jess:

Alan and Kevin. Thank you so much. Thank you Empowered for me personally, Claude and I have a lot to talk about from this and feeling very much like you've supported us and given us some tools and resources just within this short conversation.

Claude:

And, I'm sure, to all the work besties, because at some point all of them listening, they always know which one is the Kevin slash Claude and which one is the Jess slash Alan, right, so why don't you drop, you know, a little message on Instagram and let us know, or even on YouTube, let us know which one is which in your, in your pair? If you enjoyed this episode as much as we did, please don't forget to like, subscribe and see you next week.

Jess:

Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break room, rescuing each other from endless meetings or just sending that perfectly timed meme. Having a work bestie is like having your own personal hype squad.

Claude:

So keep lifting each other, laughing through the chaos and, of course, thriving. Until next time, stay positive, stay productive and don't forget to keep supporting each other. Work besties.

People on this episode

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Claude F

Co-host
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Jess K

Co-host
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Alan Lazaros

Guest
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Kevin Palmieri

Guest