Work Besties Who Podcast

More Than Words: Are You Hearing or Actually Listening...The Difference Matters

• Work Besties Who Podcast • Season 2 • Episode 65

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In this thought-provoking episode, Jess and Claude dive into the power of work besties and intentional communication with Colleen Robinson and Deanna Pemberton, founders of Digital Dojo. Their work blends martial arts, coaching, and integral medicine—bringing fresh insights into how relationships thrive in both personal and professional settings.

Together, they unpack:

  • Why listening is more than just hearing.
  • How setting standards can be more empowering than boundaries.
  • The role empathy plays in building authentic connections.
  • Why two perspectives can be valid at the same time.
  • Practical steps for self-empowerment and stronger relationships.

From “breath-to-breath listening” to reframing how we think about boundaries, this conversation challenges old patterns and equips you with tools for personal growth, better communication, and deeper connections.

🔑 Takeaways

  • Work besties make work better.
  • Communication is the foundation of any relationship.
  • Standards > boundaries.
  • Listening actively leads to understanding.
  • Empowerment starts with self-awareness.

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Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband

Jess:

What do martial arts, trauma healing and leadership coaching all have in common? Well, according to today's guest, everything. We're joined today by Colleen Robinson and Dana Pemberton, founders of the Digital Dojo and the Black Belt Mind.

Claude:

They've helped everyone, from individuals in crisis to corporate teams realign, release and rise.

Jess:

Whether you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed or ready to reclaim your power, this episode has something for you.

Claude:

And stay with us. We'll tell you how to access the free white belt mind framework that could help you shift today. Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess. We are corporate employees by day, entrepreneurs by night and work besties for life.

Jess:

Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up, laugh through the chaos and thrive together in every industry Work besties Welcome Dana and Colleen. We're so excited to have you guys.

Dana Pemberton:

Thank you, we've been looking forward to this.

Colleen Robinson:

Yes, we have Thanks for having us.

Dana Pemberton:

We're excited to be here we love the feel of how you do this. It's beautiful.

Jess:

Thank you, we feel very big, like the similar energy from you two, so I think this is going to be a fantastic conversation.

Colleen Robinson:

I agree fully.

Jess:

Yes, so Digital Dojo, let's just get right into it. I feel like there's a background that got you two together. Do you want to tell us a little bit of how this?

Dana Pemberton:

all came to be. There are so many ways I can tell this story. One of them is longer and way funnier, but that's for another time.

Colleen Robinson:

Is that the one that involves you recognizing me by my butt? Yes, that's a real thing. By the way, we can get into it or not if you're interested.

Dana Pemberton:

I did recognize she's like hey, I know that butt. Now, to be fair, his butt was on TV, so Okay, now we need the story.

Jess:

A famous butt on TV.

Dana Pemberton:

I had moved from back east and when I first met Dana just a great human, like one of the safest humans I'd ever met, One of the smartest people and wisest people I've ever known, and he had invited a few of us out. So a bunch of us had gone out and listened to some music together and he was very gentlemanly, he opened doors for me, that sort of thing. It was lovely. And in the back of my head I have no facial recognition software. That's weird that I think that I know you, because I never recognize anyone.

Dana Pemberton:

But I had watched shows that were filmed in Vancouver, BC, before moving out here and we were in a restaurant in front of a whole bunch of people. At midnight he got up to go to the loo and as he walked away I went that's how I know you, I know your butt and he just froze and he turned around and said thank you, Good response. And in order to make it so much better, I said no, no, no. There was an episode of the X-Files and it had a young sheriff on it and as the sheriff was climbing up this steep hill to go check on some terrible thing that had happened because X-Files, the camera zoomed in and I remember thinking at the time why are you doing that to this poor actor? Why are you zooming in on his butt?

Colleen Robinson:

And then I had this moment, which I see why you're zooming in on his butt like that was a good choice. I'm blushing really, turn your waves, I'll show you blushing. Yes, my butt doesn't get talked about this much normally broadcasts. But it's just, we're just calling for it. I love it. We're just diving in, apparently calling. Facial recognition software was on the fritz, but her butt recognition software was apparently firing on all pistons.

Jess:

Yes, we know who to go to, colleen if I need to go. Ran away from the scene of a crime.

Claude:

That is pretty impressive.

Colleen Robinson:

Thank you. It sort of was the biggest icebreaker in the world actually, because it just sort of broke all tensions and pretense. We just were like, oh yeah, we can just talk freely now.

Jess:

Someone screams I know your butt. I feel like there is no boundary line and she was right.

Colleen Robinson:

I was like she described the episode and I'm like, yeah, that was me.

Jess:

Yeah, you guys have been impressed Then, becoming what you guys are now.

Dana Pemberton:

The important part is we got to be friends. He was working in the film industry as an actor and a stuntman at the time. I came out here to work in the film industry. Things started to shift. We ended up dating, we ended up together.

Dana Pemberton:

And then I just had this moment. I had developed carpal tunnel syndrome actually, and I couldn't keyboard, I couldn't lift a mug, I couldn't turn a doorknob and my weird friend suggested I go see her acupuncturist, which I'm from a small town. That was crazy, but I was desperate back then. So I I had this moment where I went. I didn't realize anything could affect this much change this quickly. I said I think I need to go to the book for Chinese medicine and completely change our lives and this is going to be hard and long. He was like yep, open my own practice on an integral medicine, because integral medicine is combined with Chinese medicine. It just moves things so beautifully and so quickly. And then Dana's been coaching since he was in high school. We just expanded and started including his coaching and everything started moving faster and just to know like coaching in martial arts right yes, coaching in martial arts, coaching sports.

Colleen Robinson:

I had had a lifelong goal from my childhood to be play professional football, american football. I was being coached a lot as an athlete and be and then in turn coaching other athletes. And when I was a senior in high school, I coached the freshman team for football and wrestling and track and field. And then when I was a freshman in university and college, I coached, you know, the senior team in high school. Coaching has always been a model that I've worked with and have benefited from greatly in my life in terms of being coached and then really falling in love. Because I was in education as well, I ended up working as a high school teacher and that gave me a great opportunity to be in that coaching role because I knew how valuable being coached as an athlete was and it just kind of gained more and more traction in my life. When I met Colleen, that was the catalyst that pushed it over into this realm that we're in now.

Dana Pemberton:

Colleen, can you explain that medicine that you're doing and how do you combine together that's an awesome question, and I don't get to talk about the Chinese and internal medicine too much because it's not what we focus on when we're working in groups. It's always sort of running in the background. Chinese medicine is amazing for pattern finding. Things make sense in Chinese medicine that don't in the other models that I knew. Anyway, I'm sure there are other models that are amazing. Integral medicine is what really started making me realize how many possibilities are out there, because integral medicine uses quantum physics and neuroanatomy and cellular biology and all of these things together. What it means is that you can ask a person's nervous system to self-correct. It speeds things up exponentially when you say that it helps speed it up.

Jess:

Is it something to do with your mind? Is it something to do more so, with affirmations or elements that help you think about it and bring it to more of the forefront? Or how does that come?

Colleen Robinson:

about. It really harnesses the power of intention. So affirmations and positive mindset all that sort of stuff you just like you're right on it. It's all intention driven and the awareness of intention and the power of it is pretty, pretty amazing.

Dana Pemberton:

And the beautiful thing about affirmations is the people who do affirmations and it works for them. It works amazingly. Conscious mind processes 40 bits of data per second. The rest of your brain processes 20 million bits of data per second. So when you can get that part of your brain online so in computer terms is a conscious brain can process about a postage stamp of information, which makes sense. If I showed you three stamps in three seconds and said what was on them, you could go. It was a dog and a boat in a cabin. The rest of your brain, meanwhile, each second is processed to three hour movie In like 4k definition. So when you get that part of your brain online with affirmations for the people that affirmations work through. It is amazing for people like me, because of the way my brain works. When I say an affirmation and I go, you know I am the funniest person in the world and the back of my brain goes yeah, no, but remember that time when you did that thing and it was terrible.

Claude:

It's me, I think that's everyone. No, you're doing good.

Colleen Robinson:

But you resonate with that, claudia, I get it. Yes, it really lands with you. It resonates with you when you think that.

Dana Pemberton:

So for the people who like affirmations, I say keep doing them. It's an amazing technology really. For me, intentional medicine, integral medicine, is a way to go in, find the things that are glitching and kind of reset the breakers. It's a very gentle thing. In a lot of ways, it's a very simple and straightforward thing, and it allows us to correct things that our conscious mind doesn't know how to correct.

Dana Pemberton:

So how do you correct it? Asking for a friend part of how you correct it, and we brought integral medicine into nap. Nap is the new agreement process. It's something that I developed out of one of dana's black belt mind ideas, and the beautiful thing about it is it started as like a three page, takes 45 minutes to go through things. Now it's six, seven lines in its most basic form. What it does is it allows your brain to address the yeah buts, because for me, like for you, claude, it's the yeah buts. Right, I'm the most hilarious person in the world. Yeah, but remember when blah, blah, blah. This starts with the yeah buts and says here's the reason that you did the yeah buts, here's what reason that you did the yeah, but here's what makes it okay, here's what makes you not a terrible person, and it's still okay to reset it. So nap is one of the simplest, most accessible you can do it at home ways that we have found to be able to correct all the yeah but.

Claude:

So it's actually confronting it and say more or less why Okay, but you know, it happens, things happen. And how do you rewire? I like that, you need that, I need that, me too Me too, I'm going to hop over to you now. When did you find out that it was between both the coaching and that medicine? The merriment of the two?

Dana Pemberton:

The merriment Dana's job is to answer the complicated questions. My job is to tell the stories. So at some point you will ask a question that is really hard and I will do what I always do, which is and say something smart.

Colleen Robinson:

Or pick up something heavy. That's what my other job is.

Dana Pemberton:

I mean it works. It was just a normal process of all the things that we did. I mean, with the two of you, you just click. You spend so much time together, everything clicks and then some part of your brain goes. Why don't we bring this over to a podcast? That just makes sense. And same thing for us, where I was just like, yeah, when I'm teaching these classes, when I'm working with these people, I wish you could come talk to them about this, because when you do that it's so much easier.

Jess:

And then we just started doing that is exactly our story, so thanks for narrating it so succinctly. I love to see that it like translates to not just work besties but to actual significant others who then become work besties.

Claude:

Yeah, that's right, so you were significant others first and work besties after, right? Yeah, that's a big thing, because I don't think I would be able to work with my significant other.

Colleen Robinson:

Sure.

Claude:

I totally get that statement. You know your bond must be so strong.

Jess:

We've been working together for a while now, so was there a hurdle in the beginning to working together that you had to overcome?

Dana Pemberton:

I'm going to give the hard questions to Dana and everybody who's watching and listening to this. Do you want to be the talk out of the room? I swear at some point I'll stop talking, but this is the fun part for me. The amazing thing about this is we teach communication, we work with communication and this has made us really focus on a communication. And the funny part about that is at one point we were both working with a woman.

Dana Pemberton:

Dana left the room to do something and she looked at me and she said, oh, dana would be such a good partner for me. He's amazing. And I said, yeah, thank you, I appreciate what you're saying with that, but I don't think so. And she goes oh no, no, I know he was with you. And I said oh no, honey, not that I said this conversation we're having now, that's less like let's dig into all the deep stuff and get it moving. And she's like yeah, I said that's Tuesday at our house, that's Tuesday before dinner, that's Tuesday after dinner, that's Saturday morning. I said do you want to do that seven days a week? And she went no, the reality showed it.

Claude:

Yeah, Actually my parents worked together. Yeah, they did. My father was an interior architect and my mom was working for him, assistant right hand, telling him what to do.

Dana Pemberton:

Yeah, and how did it work?

Claude:

They really have this big connection. They were talking a lot work at home too, that's a good point.

Jess:

How do you guys separate or do you separate your actual personal life from your work when you are now so integrated in both?

Dana Pemberton:

You're going to have a nice, smart, wise answer. My answer is so much of what we do we love so much it almost doesn't matter. And for those other points I do this. Can we stop talking about?

Colleen Robinson:

That's the universal signal that it's time to stop talking. What's your answer? You probably have a better answer. No, that's great.

Colleen Robinson:

I was just thinking about the benefits that we've gained from being business partners and partners in life are very present for both of us because we're very aware of the pitfalls. We work with individuals, we work with couples, whole families, professionally and personally, corporate teams and where we've been able to identify the opportunities that we have because of the lifestyle that we live comes through really clearly because there are conversations that we can't avoid having. We can't avoid having them as partners in life, we can't avoid having them as partners in business. We have to have those conversations. That's such a valuable thing to be aware of, and part of the reason why we got so committed to the idea is because we see the damage of conversations avoided yes, avoid each other, right, and a whole bunch of ways they can avoid talking about difficult topics or things that are really foundational to their happiness or unhappiness in the relationship dynamic.

Colleen Robinson:

As we started to work together more and more and more, it became very apparent to both of us very quickly the idea of a conflict delayed is a conflict multiplied Because we face the reality of having to have those conversations that are hard and would much rather avoid, but we couldn't if we're going to be successful. We started to figure out ways to lean into that. We discovered a phrase that we used with each other and then with other people is that you've got to start listening breath to breath. You've got to start listening to each other just moment to moment. Forget about getting attached to what was going on before. Forget about being anxious and anticipating what's coming. Slow it down, go piece by piece and communicate and listen breath to breath. That has been the foundation of anything that we do together that feels successful to both of us. That's amazing.

Jess:

That makes sense in almost all relationships, right? You really need to be present and not avoid those topics and conversations, whether it is your significant other, your child, your work besties. Because that is what starts to slowly erode the trust and support.

Claude:

You got it, it's almost being factual that communication, and just with the fact and removing the emotional part behind it, which is not that easy it takes us.

Colleen Robinson:

It takes a level of commitment and discipline to do that and we're not really taught how to do that. Ever way that we've learned to do it is by doing it really badly for a while, stumbling and tripping over each other and getting it wrong. Right with a commitment to you know, the overall goal, overall goal, the overall purpose, the desire and the inspiration that says well, this feels like a path that's going to be suitable for both of us. No one, there's no rule book and nobody's showing us how, but let's just figure it out. That brings us to really understanding the difference between hearing someone and actually listening to them. There's a very different energy. It's the identification of sort of two different energies, two different perspectives, two different approaches. And if you can recognize the difference between just hearing someone and actually listening to them, then that prospect of moment to moment, breath to breath, listening and communicating gets much less intimidating.

Jess:

Dana, what would you say is like the most obvious difference.

Colleen Robinson:

So, for people who are confused, what is the difference between hearing and listening? Generally speaking, the way that we language hearing is ego-driven okay, and it runs on confirmation bias. It's it's selectively cherry picking the information that's coming at it because it's going to use it to be right. Listening is an energy that's very much more typically authentic, self-driven, it's open-minded, whereas hearing and ego-driven hearing is closed-minded. Listening is open-minded because the authentic self is not trying to be right, it's just looking for the thing that, the next thing that feels more truthful. And it's super simple way, because under pressure you need to have things simple or else you forget them if they're too complex. So one of the things that we teach people to do is to really differentiate hearing and listening by one simple metric.

Colleen Robinson:

When you're hearing things, there's like a radio in the background, right, you can tell there's music playing, but you don't know the lyrics to the song or the song that's playing. When you're listening, it's super corny, but it's easy to remember. You're able to list the things. Listening list the things it means that you can tell me if I've been going. Oh, jess, cloud, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm giving you details. I'm telling you how I feel when I pause and have correctly or listening properly. You said this is bothering you. Your shoulder hurts from your old football injury, you're scared about the job you got to go do with the presentation for the company that's new and you're feeling like you want to barf Right. When you can list the things you know you're listening.

Jess:

It's almost the same as when someone's venting to you and you have to. You have to preference the conversation. Are you looking for solutions or just to talk? It's the reverse of that, right, you're coming into it with the. Am I listening to like, react and tell you, or to just be able to regurgitate back what you said?

Colleen Robinson:

So awesome. From that perspective, you recognize that true listening is a very powerful form of communicating and it's not passive right. It requires initiative and it differentiates between listening and speaking. Right, because people often think oh well, you're speaking, so it's my turn to listen. You're initiating, it's my turn to be passive and just receive.

Colleen Robinson:

Listening is actually a very active, dynamic process. Why? Because fundamentally, the way we communicate best with each other is when we are also listening to ourselves. So if I'm listening to you and you're telling me a story, I can be just hearing you, charlie Brown's teacher, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. I'm just hearing the noise, I can't list the things. But if I'm really listening, I'm listening to my own inner reactions and responses and my energy is communicating with you. Even though my mouth is shut, we're always communicating. We're always sending signals and messages back and forth to each other. That are indicators, if we're paying attention, of how I'm receiving what you're saying. And then I'm also able to understand why it's important for me to be able to list the things you've shared, because it's not just the facts I want to be able to list. I me to be able to list the things you've shared, because it's not just the facts I want to be able to list. I want to be able to list your feelings as well you guys know each other.

Claude:

It's so funny so.

Dana Pemberton:

So if I'm going to show off my fabulous french skills insert, I roll here. I could say something like J'ai seulement un petit peu de français, mais j'espère que la prochaine année nous pouvons avoir une conversation très bien. Because when now even your response, though, claude, even your response slowed down, you were like, yes, because you could tell from the way that I was talking that you were like that wasn't bad, but you were working for that, it wasn't bad at all. Even your nonverbal slowed down and you went yeah, as opposed to if you could hear, you know the that that this was just second nature to me, you would have responded with rapid fire. So you were actually listening. You don't need to to list the things back to me, as in Colleen. I heard you say this, but what you were reflecting back to me was Colleen, I heard that you, you did okay, but you're not going to be able to handle fast in return. So when we're listening, we're responding to the intention and we're responding at the level the person can understand it with.

Jess:

That's a game changer. That was a good example it's really awesome. That example poignantly puts it, because you're most often doing it when you do speak the same language and you miss those context because I have no idea what's going on in that conversation. So I love that you're saying respond in the same manner and style that they did, because that's how well they'll receive it back too.

Claude:

And you could see also the way I was receiving also the conversation.

Dana Pemberton:

Yeah, and you were being lovely right, you were receiving it beautifully, you weren't going well, that was good, good for you.

Jess:

Or what I do. I'm like hurry up, hurry up, let's go Sure exactly I've done that you didn't. You were very kind and patient. What You're the kind one.

Dana Pemberton:

That's the beautiful thing when you do have two languages is it gets you so much better practiced at responding to somebody's intention rather than actually what they're doing and saying and how well they're doing or saying it. We do this with kids, where we respond to their intention. We don't say, yeah, honey, thank you, but you said I have dinner, rather than can I have dinner, try again tomorrow See you at breakfast.

Colleen Robinson:

Don't chew on your sheets too hard, yeah.

Dana Pemberton:

So if we can give anybody that we're talking to the same space that we give somebody in a second language, that we give to a child who's learning a second language, it just gets a lot easier.

Colleen Robinson:

I think a final sort of point to put on that that was super smart, good job, you're super smart, colleen was saying. Is that really? Just simply remember that verbal communication is about 10% of how we communicate the words, they're like sort of the least important part. We know that because we can take the same words in any language, say them with a different emotional intent and they will communicate differently every time. So, and the simplest phrase, we can say it with a myriad of different emotional connections to it and it will land with us in either a really pleasing way and we'll laugh and it'll be hilarious, or it could be the exact same words that are entirely insulting because of the energy and intent driving them.

Colleen Robinson:

Exploration and recognition of the difference between what we're calling hearing and listening is rich with really valuable real world details about how we actually communicate and how to do it effectively, because words account for about 10%. It's everything else, what our body's doing's doing how our voice sounds, the energy behind it, the rhythm, the cadence, the pace, the tonality. That's where we really that 90 of the non-verbal stuff is where we really communicate and it's also how, in what kind of mood, you are receiving it as well and how you come into the conversation you mean because sometimes the other person might say something but, depending on your mood, you take it the wrong way.

Colleen Robinson:

Absolutely.

Dana Pemberton:

Can I give another example? Years ago we were moving and we had packed up the entire place, two-story place. We packed up every single thing. There was literally one thing still in the house and we were getting ready to go dana's very black and white. And so I said van's outside, everything's packed up. Can you grab my purple purse? And we're out of here. And he looks around this completely empty place, looks at me and goes do you mean the burgundy purse?

Colleen Robinson:

I thought I was being helpful, like have you spoken to each other back then? That's pretty much what.

Dana Pemberton:

Yeah, it's amazing that they're pretty much the same reaction a lot of women have that reaction and, and, like you were saying, part of my reaction leading into that was it has been a very long day and a very long month leading up to it, and what other purse would I mean? So please, yes, give me the damn purse there's nothing in the house.

Dana Pemberton:

Nothing, because I've assumed all sorts of stuff in the background. And then it took a little while. I'd like to say it took a couple hours, it took a couple of weeks. And I said, when you asked me if I meant the burgundy purse, did you just mean, do you mean the burgundy purse? And he went, yeah, what else would I have meant? I said you didn't mean. Why don't you use the right color, colleen? Or? And he was like yeah, and he said no, how do I know that you hadn't brought a purple purse as well, or burgundy purse, and left it upstairs? I don't know. And when I listened to him, like his, I'm being a smart ass. Face and voice is definitely different than that face and voice. I'm a delight. I don't have that.

Jess:

You are a delight he knows you well enough to like at a day where you're moving. That is not the time. But yes, I could totally see that out of context.

Dana Pemberton:

You would be like, really, that's that's yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think that lands us perfectly in the place.

Colleen Robinson:

To touch on one of the big tenets that colleen took from the black belt line and built a nap upon was really being clear on the difference between a reaction and a response. And it's really interesting because I grew up in a military household. I was headed in that direction until kind of sports took over my life and that's where I was allowed to put that discipline and commitment. My father was a fighter pilot. Everything in his language was very exact all the time. Just as a quick example, as a kid I'd be like are you an insane person? He's so precise about everything. I'm like you're crazy. Yeah, too much.

Colleen Robinson:

But then, as I got older and learned to understand his context and perspective, he shared a story with me where he said look, when you're walking, if you're two degrees off of your exact direction, if you're only walking at two miles an hour for 20 minutes, well you're only going to end up 30 feet away from your destination. So if you're going to your friend's house and you're trying to get to his front door, you're going to walk there at two miles an hour for 20 minutes and then when you get there, you're still be able to see. See the house, but you're gonna be like 30 feet away from the door. And he said, when you're flying a supersonic jet at 800 miles an hour, two degrees of difference in terms of the precision of your intent, your vector, your direction. That means, instead of bombing the target that you're supposed to bomb, you're 800 miles off course and you're bombing an innocent village.

Colleen Robinson:

I was like, oh okay, sure that lesson stuck with me. Flash forward to that conversation. Right, that's the automatic, ingrained, natural context that I come from Precision exactness. So I'm thinking my best offering is, after this long draining day where call is tired, I'm tired. It's been stressful and heavy. The packing, the two months has been stressful and heavy. I think, hey, if I make sure it's the right purse and there's no other purse that I might mix it up with, I'm helping.

Jess:

You're offering the best you can. This is going to help her. I'm helping.

Colleen Robinson:

You're offering the best you can, best I've got. This is going to help her and she's like Because I was tired and stressed too, but I was trying to do the best thing I could do and understand. So that brings us to an understanding of why we need to have a good awareness of listening to ourselves, to understand the difference between our reaction and our response. Another principle that we really work with in our work individually together, is that two things can be valid and true at the same time.

Jess:

I feel like I say that a lot, but it's so true. Two people have very different perspectives, different backgrounds, different ways you're coming into the conversation, so you both are right. It's just how you listen and react absolutely.

Colleen Robinson:

If we're stuck in uh a, only trying to hear and only reacting, then one of us has to lose, one of us has to be wrong. If I feel like I'm really truly right from what I can see, youth call feels like she's truly really really right from where she can see, then Yves Coll feels like she's truly really really right from where she can see, then we're in a dwindling spiral of resentment because we're then no, I'm right, no, I'm right, no, I'm right, no, I'm right. We can switch that into really listening, responding. We can just find the thing that feels more productively true. Next, well, hey, collie, I get where you're coming from. True. Next, well, hey, call you, I get where you're coming from. I get where you're coming from. Great, where does that leave us? Where does that put us? How can we take those truths and align them even further, so that we're not just battling each other about who's right or wrong? We're not being adversaries, we're being allies in alignment, trying to find the next best thing to do?

Jess:

Based off of that, you probably have to coach people a lot on how to have that pause and respect for each other. It probably is an aha moment, but a little bit easier for recognizing with somebody you're close with. How do you help coach people with when you're in a work situation and it's maybe a coworker who you don't have a personal background with, but you two always do come at it in very different perspectives?

Dana Pemberton:

Great question, jess. My answer is the way you two are doing this exactly. I keep watching. Every single time either of us speaks, I can see both of you actually listening, processing and then deciding you're going to assume that what we're saying we're saying in the best possible way and leading it forward from then You're not going. That actually wasn't funny. I didn't want to talk about wearing glasses. How rude, right? You're just assuming the best intention and you're choosing to reroute back to what works the best for the people who are awesome and come out and listen to you. So my simple answer is do exactly what you two are doing. I mean, you guys are fabulous. We have many similar ways of communication to you, but we're not exactly the same. You're not going like, oh, we couldn't possibly talk to you because you're doing this differently than we would.

Claude:

If I understand well, it would be like the co-worker we're not happy or we don't agree.

Colleen Robinson:

It's actually listening and with an open, and that's awesome. I love that. Let's tie it right to the conversation here. Right, really simply treat people like they're your bestie, right, because here's the cool thing, it's just the heaviest sigh I have ever heard.

Jess:

Oh, my goodness yeah that's okay.

Dana Pemberton:

Was that a good side? A hard, hard side? That seemed heavy.

Colleen Robinson:

Yeah, I actually love to hear what's behind that more than I love to hear my own voice. If you want to share it, claude, what do you think? What was? How did that land for you? I'm curious what resonated and what didn't you?

Jess:

can say it in front of me, I won't get jealous.

Claude:

No, it's the opposite. It must be a lot of work for for me to talk the same way I talk to Jess than, for example, a co-worker. That is completely the opposite. It's not like a friend, it's a lot of work. To treat everybody like a bestie. Yes, to treat someone with kindness and with respect Absolutely, but treat me like a bestie, that's a lot.

Dana Pemberton:

Yeah, yeah, I get that A lot of effort or a lot of trust or a lot of Risk, effort.

Claude:

Not risk effort yeah yeah. And it has to be authentic because, for example, there's a co-worker. I cannot stand.

Colleen Robinson:

Yes.

Colleen Robinson:

Let's say for me I can be helpful, but treating and talking to them like a bestie is not as authentic for me. Sure, I get that totally, and part of the reason why I framed it in that way was to use some of the language that we've been building on already, but also to recognize and maybe the best way to give you an example is when you so, just when you you, you were asking about yeah well, that's cool when we were doing it with our bestie, but how do we do that with someone who's not our bestie? Like it's easier with your bestie, I'm like actually, no, sometimes it's harder with your bestie. Why? Because the stakes are higher, there's more at risk.

Jess:

I was going to say the way you responded to that. Now I feel like I stress you out Because you're like I don't have the, the. What was your wording?

Claude:

It was like no, you're my bestie, I know, but you have that same level of engagement with other people.

Jess:

I'm like, what am I doing?

Claude:

Oh, it's a no, our, it's a no, our, it's a positive way.

Colleen Robinson:

Yes.

Claude:

It might work.

Jess:

We already have, like we cut through a lot of that red tape.

Colleen Robinson:

Yeah.

Claude:

And also it's like my like, even like physical, yes, and lean more. That's why, for me, it's like this genuine conversation. Absolutely genuine conversation, talking and and leaning or whatever versus someone that is not in that state of relationship. I cannot do the same thing, so maybe absolutely your element of genuine could be different though right.

Colleen Robinson:

I love this so much, genuine, yes, it's so good, I love this. I'm telling you, yeah, I, I want to keep the wraps on it, because I could go off on this, because we're alive in an example like right now. Maybe a simple way to to differentiate. Why I positioned it like that is because in an ideal circumstance, claude, you're feeling good on a day, jess, you're feeling good on a day that investment and connection that you have in each other is free and it's flowing and it's easy to give and easy to receive right. That's the ideal, that's what we always want.

Colleen Robinson:

But the more interested and intentful we are to anybody that we invest in right, the higher the stakes become. In other words, that means, yes, there's lots to gain, but at that level of intimacy, there's more to lose. And the reason why that's important is is because let's flip reverse engineer for a second had a terrible sleep cloud, had a really awful day before, jess, come into working together, not at your best, not feeling great, not in a great mood, not really ready to take on any other feathers on the camel's back that might break it right. We all have those moments on any level of intimacy, of relationship that has deep intimacy, because that's not just romantic, that's familial, that's friendship. Right sometimes, that same person who can be your beautiful I will receive you in all your worst moments kind of person, right when you're both in that place, you're even more afraid to approach that person not me, because I'm a delight.

Dana Pemberton:

Yes, always.

Colleen Robinson:

Always, just for the record, please don't cut that part up. Always a delight, but why I'm bringing that into this conversation and want to build awareness around it is because it's not necessarily the time spent with a person. That is the only way to create intimacy, like just closeness and relaxation and freedom. The thing that allows us to stay in an intimate relationship, that builds it, is knowing when not to take things personally. Totally Right, when we extend that idea and that dynamic to a coworker, let's say that we don't like. And I'm with you, claude, because you were right in the vein which is, hey, I can treat everybody with dignity, respect, kindness and give them some room. You don't have to have a personally intimate relationship with that person in order to treat them like you would treat your bestie.

Colleen Robinson:

And maybe the simplest way to say it is that there's a big difference. We treat love and loving someone more like an action than an energy. So what does that mean? That means I don't actually have to know someone personally or even at all to be loving towards them. Okay, because if I can be loving towards them and then they respond to me being loving to them, but I treat them with respect, I treat them with dignity. I treat them like they have a right to occupy space. I treat them like they have a right to occupy space. I treat them like they have a right to have a voice. If I can accept all those things and not take them personally, when they say something that makes me react, I open up space to build the energy that does really create real intimacy, which is I get to like them a little bit because I was loving to them. They responded Cool, I'm getting to know you. I can't like you if I don't know you. I also can't take things personally from you if I don't know.

Dana Pemberton:

I want to see how Claude feels with this, with the imaginary person she doesn't like. Sure Right.

Jess:

Yes, it's fake, guys Fake.

Claude:

Ask me for a friend again.

Colleen Robinson:

We're going to challenge our old way of thinking, because we're taught things that only work under certain circumstances, and sometimes, when we're not in those circumstances, then we're lost.

Jess:

Yeah, I'm curious. So what's your thinking now? No, it's true that.

Claude:

so, for example, when you have this strong relationship with someone, you'll be more forgiving. You know where they're coming from. We are not always in a good mood.

Jess:

We are whatever Like the last couple of weeks I'm coming to work in a rough state and you recognize, yeah, and I'm like okay, yeah, and it's the same way.

Claude:

sometimes I'm like not really want to say a word, but it happens and you understand where it's coming from and you might take offense at the beginning but then afterwards, because we are friends, we actually understand each other and where we are coming from and, like you say, not take personally. When you have someone that you don't have as much investment with or affinity sometimes which is not always good you're not as flexible.

Colleen Robinson:

You work so good. Sometimes all of what you just said, claude, flips. There are times where I could hear the same thing from 100 different people during the day, but because of my deep personal connection to colleen and my empathy and compassion for her, she can say one thing to me, one thing, completely innocently, and I will take it worse and more personally than anybody else. I've heard the same thing from that whole day Because she knows you, so she knows why it hurts. For sure, absolutely.

Claude:

She knows the but yes.

Jess:

She probably would never do that she does.

Colleen Robinson:

Sorry, you missed the joke. No, no, if we're going to leave anything in, please leave it out, because I'm going to now use this as a shorthand for how we communicate. I'm like, hey, you know my butt. Come on, just that simple possibility. I can be the most forgiving to colleen and try to cultivate that all the time when I'm at my best and hope that she does that for me, right? But I can have really bad days sometimes, right, and when I have a really bad day, sometimes, you know, you take it on the people you love the most, right, it's true.

Colleen Robinson:

So those are the areas that we're talking about, because, just like me going, do you mean the burgundy purse? And see, these are the conversations that we, that we've learned to not avoid, right? I can guarantee you there wasn't a whole lot of understanding and forgiveness for calling for me in that moment. Not a whole lot. Why? Because she's like my god. You, of anyone on the planet, should know me and know my butt well enough to recognize that was the stupidest thing you could have said to me in this moment. And when we can be honest and authentic about those moments and then have conversations around those moments, right, the level of intimacy and trust and deep listening that's available is miraculous right, but we're not taught Now. This is part of why I'm going on so much, because I want people to know that there's room in places to be authentic, to communicate clearly, to be heard, to be listened to.

Jess:

That they never thought possible, dana you bring up a lot of great topics that, like anybody, can relate to Work besties for sure. What is your area of focus? How are people finding you guys and coming to you?

Dana Pemberton:

We started off working a lot with trauma. People were coming to us almost as the like I've tried everything else and this is my last chance. Whether it's my last chance to not feel this pain or to have this problem, or we're going to get a divorce if we don't get this straightened out, or the company's going to collapse. And one of the exciting things about that is that we get to start introducing these new concepts and giving everybody this space to actually have some power again.

Dana Pemberton:

Oftentimes, with work besties, people will come in and that's their only ally. They feel when they go to work and everybody else is insane and it's wonderful to have that ally. But we can also feel quite overloaded because we feel like we are powerless. In that situation, everything sucks except for you. We help people with is boundaries, because a lot of times when people are in work situations where they only have the one person who understands them, they're spending a lot of time trying to set boundaries with everybody else because they feel so pushed and not listened to and overwhelmed and so insignificant compared to everybody else Resonating really well with the boundaries, because that's one that I continue to have to work on.

Jess:

Love hearing that You're touching on a lot of topics that people don't even know where to go to. You want to share maybe how people would find you and where, how to. You want to share maybe how people would find you and where, how would they be able to interact with you all.

Dana Pemberton:

We are on thedigitaldojonet. We named it before. We tried to say it five times quickly because you can't and you can find links there. You can find us on YouTube. We're on YouTube, instagram, facebook, those LinkedIn, and we want to make sure when people come to the website that there's something for any angle. If somebody wants 30 seconds or three minutes, they can watch one of the YouTube videos on our blog. Or if people want to try a little something, we've got a free three-day mindset reset. It's five minutes a day. You can do the white belt mind with Dana's ideas and me bouncing stuff off of people. The whole white belt mind is free. That's the introduction to the Black Belt Mind stuff, and then you can do things up to as much as like a six or seven week program, live on Zoom with us. So there's so many ways in.

Jess:

And I feel like I saw something that you have a class coming up. Tell us details, because maybe we need to sign up.

Colleen Robinson:

Love to have you?

Dana Pemberton:

Yes, it's coming in September 18th. We've got a class called the Happiness Pod, so it's a group that meets on Thursday nights once a week for six weeks and we work on all the stuff. We work on happiness, we work on joy, we also work on stress and anxiety and all the old patterns, including inherited old patterns, that are keeping us from leaning into happiness and leaning into joy.

Claude:

So is it mind and body, Because when you talk about, you know the white belt mind right away you're thinking martial art and everything.

Dana Pemberton:

So is it like a combination of both? In theory, we're not going to give you physical exercises to go home with, because all the black belt mind stuff we're taking the lessons from the dojo. We're not actually saying, and now throw a punch, this, so it's. It's the concept of the right belt line to help you. When we, when we do nap which is what I tend to lead in the classes we're clearing out the old patterns that are holding you back, whether or not you know what they are. And then, because you don't have to know what they are, that's the point of of working in a group and you can get some limbic resonance and some limbic revision happening, which is really cool neuroscience stuff that allows your brain to change without you having to work at it. Then the Black Belt Mind stuff gives people a new framework that you can choose to lead you forward. That's awesome, that is so cool.

Claude:

If people are interested in that class, do they go to your website and register.

Dana Pemberton:

Yeah, they can go to thedigitaldojonet. Then you'll see something called a NAP pod as one of the options there, and the pods are these groups where we all work together.

Jess:

Thank you. So we do have one final question what's one small shift someone can make today to feel more empowered, aligned and at peace?

Dana Pemberton:

I'm blatantly stealing from Dana's Black Belt Mind stuff because I have always hated boundaries. I suck at boundaries. I used to take classes and then I'd try to do it and it was exhausting. And then in class one day, dana starts talking about standards versus boundaries and I was just nodding as if I knew what he was talking about. Meanwhile I'm madly taking notes. This is awesome.

Dana Pemberton:

So we swap out boundaries for standards. So boundaries are something we decide on that we try to enforce on other people. So every time somebody doesn't do it, we let them know and then we have to manage their reaction about how they let us down. It's a lot of work. Standard says this is what matters to me and I'm going to act as if it matters to me. And if you don't respect that and act as if it matters to you, that's okay. I get to choose how we interact from now on based on whether or not you're meeting my standards. You don't even have to tell them that, you just start to act accordingly. I spend so much more time trying to police other people and more time just going. You're respecting me. I would love to give you more time and attention. And this person gets a very polite, respectful short answer, because they're not.

Jess:

I will take that right now.

Colleen Robinson:

Awesome. Love it, Josh, Love it oh.

Jess:

Colleen and Dana. This has been amazing. We so appreciate you guys being on. I feel like what I took away from this is working on yourself and all these different elements. It doesn't have to be heavy. It does come back down to just taking that pause and thinking and listening and feeling more grounded because of it. Thank you for sharing that.

Claude:

Thank you and work besties. If you enjoyed as much as we did, please make sure to click subscribe and like this episode. Forward it to your work bestie as well. And don't forget september 18th.

Jess:

There's a great class ready for you and tell us if you're going to be on it. Maybe it'll convince claude and I to join too. We'd love some of you work bestie community yes thank you and see you next week.

Claude:

Thank you again, colin and dana.

Dana Pemberton:

Thank you both so much. Fabulous people put good into the world.

Colleen Robinson:

Thanks for being wonderful responders and listeners and treating us like besties.

Jess:

Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break room, rescuing each other from endless meetings or just sending that perfectly timed meme. Having a work bestie is like having your own personal hype squad.

Claude:

So keep lifting each other, laughing through the chaos and, of course, thriving. Until next time, stay positive, stay productive and don't forget to keep supporting each other. Work besties.

People on this episode

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Claude F

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Jess K

Co-host