Work Besties Who Podcast

Healing from Burnout: Insights from a Therapists

• Work Besties Who Podcast • Season 2 • Episode 71

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High performance can come with hidden costs. 

In this conversation, the Work Besties, Jess and Claude chat with therapist Laurel VanDerToorn, who explains why trauma and burnout can hit high achievers hard—and what real, sustainable recovery looks like. We dig into the early signs (brain fog, fatigue, cynicism), why “just take a vacation” misses the mark, and how small, repeatable behaviors compound into resilience. Laurel shares her four-layer approach—physical health → behavioral routines → deep relationships → values alignment—plus boundary-setting scripts, the Four D’s (Do, Date, Delegate, Delete), and how to protect your nervous system in 24/7 work cultures. If you’ve been feeling crispy, this one’s for you.

Key Takeaways

  • High achievers face unique pressures and a heightened need for privacy.
  • Vacations are a band-aid; sustainable recovery needs system-level changes.
  • Catch the early signs: fatigue, brain fog, aches, rising cynicism.
  • Start with small behaviors (sleep, nutrition, movement, phone hygiene).
  • Physical health checks (labs, thyroid/iron) can rule out confounders.
  • Relationships (yes, work besties) buffer burnout.
  • Boundaries and delegation reduce overload.
  • Align daily actions with personal values to lower burnout risk.
  • Protect your nervous system with on-ramps/off-ramps to the workday.

Contact Laurel VanDer Toorn via her website

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Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband

Laurel:

Late stage burnout, it it feels like crisis. It's that severe. I mean, and it's that serious a condition.

Claude:

Hi, I'm Claude. And I'm Jess. We are corporate employees by day, entrepreneurs by night, and work besties for life.

Jess:

Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up, laugh through the chaos, and thrive together in every industry. Work besties. High performance sometimes comes with hidden costs, and no one knows that. Executives, lawyers, healthcare workers, and entrepreneurs help people heal from trauma and rediscover joy. Today we ask, what does true healing look like when you're coming back from burnout or past pain? Welcome. We're so excited to have you. What do you feel makes trauma and burnout unique for those high achievers?

Laurel:

I don't know that it's necessarily unique, but they're coming to it with very high stakes. And, you know, often people are depending on them. They have a professional reputation. And I don't think that there are as many differences between these high achievers and other people who have like very critical jobs, like teachers, ER nurses, you know, people that maybe don't have fancy letters after their name or don't have their name on a building. But the stakes feel very high and there's a high need for privacy. And so that there's a lot of urgency to heal and get back to work as quick as they can.

Claude:

What do you mean, like this need of privacy?

Laurel:

Well, if someone is a public figure or, you know, the head of a company, they have kind of a public persona, they definitely don't want anyone knowing they're coming to therapy or that they are struggling with burnout because they have um a responsibility to employees, sometimes to shareholders, you know, stakeholders in the company, and they need to project stability and health. So there's that added pressure to create the illusion of having it all together when maybe underneath they don't.

Jess:

So Laurel , we both resonate with higher teething burnout. And it seems like you've built this whole element around leveraging your skill set, which is being a therapist, with this style of clients. What led you down this path?

Laurel:

I like to say that I was I was cursed with ambition myself. What's the next thing? What's the next thing? As soon as I got my license, which was a process 10 years in the making, it was like, okay, now I need to fill my practice. And then once I filled my practice, I was like, this can't be it. This can't be the only thing. This is not the end of the road. So I so I opened a group practice, which is essentially hiring other therapists to come work under the umbrella of my practice. And in that, nurturing new therapist talent, people that are working towards their license, or people that are are not cursed with ambition and are excellent therapists, but don't want to have to run their own business. I'm just wired this way. I'm always looking for the next thing, the next challenge. How do I grow? I share that with a lot of my clients who are equally ambitious and driven and entrepreneurial, that they have this innate creativity and drive and energy. They may not know the machinations of my business, but they sense she gets it. She knows what it's like to have that ambition and that drive and to not be able to set it aside, even when you really do need mental health care and you're, you know, suffering consequences of burnout and other experiences, trauma, grief, anxiety. Um, the ambition doesn't necessarily quiet during those times. So having a therapist that can hold all of it, people resonate with that.

Jess:

I'm a big proponent of therapy and finding yourself a therapist. What you're honing in on is the journey of finding a therapist. The thing that I was most interested in having in that relationship was somebody who could relate. I I love that you bring that up because I don't know that that's something everybody thinks about with therapy. If it's just get it and know it, and that's not not necessarily going to be what works for you.

Laurel:

The significance of the therapist match and the personality match cannot be understated. We know that 80% of why therapy works is because you have a good match with your therapist. Yes.

Claude:

I totally agree with you. Personally, I need someone to be able to understand me and head me to my path.

Laurel:

Sometimes when I've made a mistake as a therapist, it becomes really rich fodder for conversation. I've made a mistake and apologized to a client, and they were able to say, wow, other people have done something similar to me but never apologized. And like to experience what a repair looks like in a healthy relationship, that can be way more profound than having a perfect therapist.

Jess:

You actually want somebody who's going to showcase that you're still working on things too.

Laurel:

Absolutely.

Jess:

There is no such thing as a perfect person. And I don't want to have a perfect person. Not fun. Um, so one of the things I wanted to deep dive a little bit more into is burnout. I feel we often confuse burnout recovery or the ways to overcome it with just taking a vacation. Just take some time. I'm curious your perspective on that.

Laurel:

A lot of high achievers, well, I just need a vacation. And I will very quickly be like, no, you don't need a vacation. We all need vacations from time to time. What they actually want is some kind of radical, magical change. And that doesn't come with a one or two week or even a one-month vacation because they'll come back to the same work patterns, the same mindset, the same environment that created the need for the break. A vacation is a band-aid. And if you don't fundamentally make some subtle but necessary changes, you're just going to keep being in this loop of needing that vacation.

Claude:

Your clients must be trusting you because you implemented all those tools.

Laurel:

Yes, absolutely. And to understand what works to treat burnout, we have to understand what causes burnout. So it's it's really twofold. One is um a work environment where you don't have a lot of control, where it's just kind of like you're in a high stress environment where you don't have a lot of say, and a pathological pattern of not prioritizing yourself. And that's the part that you can control. A lot of ambitious-driven people are used to sacrificing themselves. They're used to saying, you know what, I can pull an all-nighter so that we get this brief drafted. It's okay if I am apart from my partner for a month while I'm negotiating this deal in Dubai. Like it's okay. I'm gonna skip lunch to make sure that this client gets what they need in time, right? And on small, on a small level, those kinds of things do occasionally happen and are okay. Not here to be like, no, you can never sacrifice yourself for work. But if you are constantly doing that, you're absolutely gonna burn out.

Claude:

So, what are the first signs of burnout?

Laurel:

With my clients, I notice a lot of somatic complaints. So, like aches and pains, feeling more tired, fatigued, any existing health problems are gonna get a little worse. You're gonna catch more colds and viruses. There's kind of a tiredness and brain fog. It creeps in subtly. Driven people are used to pushing through discomfort. Driven people are pretty good at muscling through that initial discomfort because it does just feel like I'm in a little bit of a funk. But it just progresses over time. When you're at moderate burnout, you're really tired, you're starting to get more cynical, you're having more physical aches and pains, and every little thing is like annoying or feels like the end of the world. What is important versus what is not important gets really scrambled.

Jess:

We're laughing because I pass right burnout.

Laurel:

Okay, okay. Yes. Yep. Late stage burnout, it feels like crisis. Like you cannot keep going. If I have to go into the office one more day, I'm gonna scream. Your significant health problems, sleep disruption, major anxiety and depression, your nervous system is completely out of whack, right? It's a very slippery slope because that early stage is like, I can handle this. And in the middle stage, you're like, wait, wait, this doesn't feel good. And then you get to that late stage. I have not yet worked with someone who's in that late stage of burnout that didn't need to go on medical leave to recover. It's that severe. I mean, and it's that serious a condition. I've I've actually really enjoyed working with people who need to go on medical leave for burnout because it got bad enough that they're actually willing to make some change and to implement lifestyle medicine and to examine their values and priorities more critically than they would have if it hadn't gotten that bad. So so it really needs to be taken seriously from the start.

Claude:

Before we go to that steps, yeah, what are the tools that we can start? Yeah.

Laurel:

I look at it very behaviorally. What small behaviors can we start to change? Because a big life overhaul, like moving to a new city, quitting your job, all of that, like it's kind of like sexy, but it doesn't actually solve the problem. You're gonna end up in the same position that you are now if you don't make some changes. So this leads into like my protocol for burnout recovery and prevention, honestly. If you're not burned out, I highly recommend that you implement these things now to prevent it. So I look at it as four layers. If you imagine there's like a globe and you cut that globe, you get that intersection of the globe. The outer crust of that globe is your physical health. So very concrete medical things. Whenever someone comes to work with me, I asked them the last time they had a physical. And if it hasn't been recently, um, I recommend that they go see their doctor. If they don't have a doctor, they need to get a doctor and just get some routine lab work. Particularly for women, I want to make sure that their iron and their thyroid has been checked recently because iron deficiency and thyroid conditions can feel a lot like burnout because you're exhausted. It's like pushing that boulder up a cliff. And I don't want to work with someone for a year treating them for depression or burnout when it was a thyroid condition. So I want to rule that out. Get basic lab work done and make sure you're all good there. If you know you have a medical condition that's contributing, you need to address that. If you know you're anemic and you're not taking your iron supplements, how do we make sure that you're taking them when you need to take them? Do we put them by your toothbrush? Do we have a phone alarm? What's the system here? Your physical health, you can make a lot of progress just addressing those medical, physical issues, right? But if if everything is mostly good there, then we go to the next layer, which is the behavioral layer of your health. Now, these are all of the things we know we're supposed to do to perform at our best. And yet it's really hard to operationalize them because they don't seem like a high priority. So I work with people to recognize sleep, eating, and moving your body are the highest priorities that you have to have when you're burnt out. So, how do we protect your sleep? Get an alarm clock, put your phone in another room. That's one of my favorite things. And it's so hard to do. It is so hard to do because we're so addicted to our phones. But just try it. Try it for a month, see how it goes. I also have a couple of apps that I love that block your access to certain apps at certain times, or they make it annoying to open the app. So you just kind of stop. I have a 45-second delay on Instagram. So I just mostly don't open Instagram. The app I use is called OneSec. It's a little annoying to set up, but once it's set up, it's great. So these behavioral things like eating, sleeping, moving your body. I honestly have to spend a good amount of time with people and figuring out how we're gonna prioritize these. Sometimes it's eliminating decision fatigue. So, like we're gonna have the same thing for breakfast every day, even if we don't enjoy it, just to make sure we eat every day, eliminating a lot of the mental work that has to go into these things. Accountability buddies are great. Maybe you have a regular meeting, you make it a walking meeting so that you're actually moving. And that's always the excuse. I don't have time to move my body, I don't have time to cook, I don't have time to sleep. Figuring that out and pointing out they do have time. The mental mindset shift comes after the behavior shift. Once you realize how much better you feel sleeping and eating regularly and moving your body, then you become more willing to do it. But you have to just make yourself do it for a while.

Claude:

It's so funny how yesterday uh I had a very stressful day, and I'm like, and I never live at five, ever. And I'm like, okay, I'm leaving at five, I'm going to swim because I need to do that. And that is something it's kind of new, good for you, and proud of you, but it was realizing, okay, I I I can't, even if I'm going to continue, I'm going to be useless.

Laurel:

I don't care if you put in a 14-hour day if seven of those hours were garbage. You get mental clarity by taking breaks. Sometimes it's a small break, and sometimes it's I need to go to that workout class for an hour and sweat. And like part of what happens when you move your body is you complete the stress cycle. So your nervous system actually starts to come down after you've moved in a way that is really important for burnout recovery. So then the last thing I'll say in the behavior layer, look at your substance use. Because people that are very stressed, it's easy to have a glass of wine or two or three or four at the end of a day. And that is, I like to say it's like buying on credit. Like the bill does come due and it's a net negative, even if it's a short-term relief, it creates debt. Just looking at that, maybe you consider taking a month off or two months off of drinking or using substances just while you're trying to get back to a healthy baseline.

Jess:

Absolutely. I said there were four layers.

Laurel:

The third layer is deep loving relationships. These can be a work bestie, right? That is a natural burnout protection. Like having a meaningful relationship with someone at work really helps prevent burnout. When we feel isolated, when we feel disconnected, we're much more likely to burn out. But this is also friendships outside of work. This is a healthy partnership, family relationships, friendships, pets. When we don't put time and energy into those relationships because all we're doing is working, we get out of balance and our health suffers and our mental health suffers. So investing in friendships is one of the best things you can do for your mental health.

Jess:

We love hearing that.

Laurel:

Recognize it's really hard to make new friends as an adult. And it's all hard to know how to deepen relationships as an adult. How do you make that leap from a work friend to like a really good personal friend you see outside of work? One recommendation is look for people who are in transition. People who just moved or just had a baby or just got a divorce or just got promoted. When people are in transition, they're naturally more open to building new relationships, right? And then the other is to judiciously be vulnerable. Now, don't trauma dump, don't go too fast too far, but like to be willing to be like, yeah, man, like I'm struggling with a little bit of burnout, or like I'm a little unclear on my new role at work, and it's giving me some anxiety. These little bits of vulnerability signal to them that you're wanting to deepen the relationship. People that do trauma dump or go too fast is because they really want that closeness and connection, and they just don't know how to make it happen. And there's a little bit of I need support, I need closeness, but honestly, time is the most important ingredient often. So you've given us now for piggybacks on the relationships, but it's a bit of an expansion. Some people would call it your spiritual health. A lot of people I work with don't like that term because it calls up religion. I look, I work with a lot of LGBT folks that maybe have religious trauma. It's not necessarily religion, although if you are religious, great. It's a strong sense of your personal values and feeling like you are operationalizing those values in your daily life. I work with a lot of people where we'll we'll do a values sort. Like what is traits and ideals are most important to you? For some of them, it's security, intelligence, fun, and family. When they make decisions about how they're spending their time and their money, they consult those values. Security, fun, family, intelligence. And we are much less likely to get burned out if we feel like our values are being lived out every day. The work is in conflict with their values. A lot of lawyers that work for a major firm, they don't get a say in what cases they're assigned to. And they're like, this work is in conflict with my values. It's finding other ways to operationalize your values. Yeah, it could be outside of work or it could be at work. Maybe you join an ERG or an affinity group that's doing work that you find meaningful at work. It's it's a way to operationalize those values.

Claude:

So more or less you compensate for something that though I love those four layers. Now you have those high achievers, right? The companies used to have them from eight o'clock in the morning to ten o'clock at night, always available. What happens now that those individuals to avoid the burnout and decide to prioritize their well-being and so they might be leaving earlier than they used to? What is the response of the company?

Laurel:

A lot of people are afraid of that.

Claude:

Yeah.

Laurel:

It's the the pushback or you know, the consequence is usually so minuscule compared to what they anticipated. But most of the time, it is okay to go to a workout class for an hour and respond to an email or a message an hour later. Now, very occasionally it's not. But the tr the key here is not having your nervous system available to work 24-7, right? You might check your email, but not go into that like full work anxiety mode. How do you protect your nervous system against the onslaught it experiences around work? That's gonna look a little different for each person. If you've done really attending to all four layers of your health, your nervous system is gonna be pretty well protected. It's on a case-by-case basis. I like to make sure people are getting some on-ramp and off-ramp at the end of the day. You cannot reach for your phone and check your work email first thing in the morning. That's just like giving your nervous system a giant jolt of adrenaline. It's so bad for you. Even if you do five minutes, get up, you know, brush your teeth, make your coffee, and I like to go sit out on my little, you know, my little apartment balcony a few minutes, and then I'll check my email. Work isn't gonna know that I took five minutes for myself, but it makes a significant difference in your nervous system response. And similarly, at the end of the day, you log off and then give yourself 20, 30, ideally an hour of reading an actual book or cuddling with your pet or undivided attention with your partner, something that meets one of those four layers of health. That's the mindset shift. When you mentally protect yourself and your nervous system, you're gonna feel a lot better.

Claude:

And I'm sure that there's going to be a positive result to your work.

Laurel:

Absolutely. The quality of work goes up significantly, and people are actually more productive. They feel like they have more free time because they're more efficient. And it is the case in many industries that when you do good work, you're rewarded by being given more work. A lot of people I work with struggle to say no and set boundaries to say, I've already been assigned six cases this month. I cannot take on anymore. Whereas previously they would have just been like, okay, yeah. But saying, here's what I have on my plate. What would you like me to get rid of so I can take on this other thing? That can go a long way.

Claude:

Which is true because people don't realize how much you have on your plate until you show it. I'm like, I have this, this, this, and this.

Laurel:

And putting it on a manager, which of these things is most important to you that I accomplish? Because I cannot do all of them. Can you help me prioritize if you are going to ask me to do all these things?

Jess:

You help or work with CEOs or C-suite level. Knowing boundary setting is something all need to work on, even CEOs.

Laurel:

Yeah.

Jess:

What are tools that you're training them to help understand that they've now just overloaded the team? Because the next step is they turn around and they say, Well, I get to delegate. I can't do it all. So now you all do it.

Laurel:

You know, I don't find that my clients are over-delegating. They're under-delegating. People that are burning out are less likely to delegate. So something I work with people on is I call it the four Ds. Everything in your work life and your personal life falls into four categories. Do, date, delegate, delete. Do is something you need to do right away. Like pick your sick kid up from school. That needs to be done right now. We cannot schedule this. We cannot delegate. Like it has to be you. Date is like things you can schedule. We need to have a conversation about this. Let's schedule it for next Tuesday at 10 a.m. It's not extremely urgent. It's important. So it's gonna like get something on the schedule. We need to go over the budget, but not urgent. Delegate is things that need to be done, but not by you. And a lot of ambitious people struggle with this because there's a little bit of ego. I do it better. I'm the only one that knows how to do this. I have a good number of other therapists in my life that run similar practices. They employ other therapists and they really struggle to delegate things because like they are running this small business. They we need to check our egos because a lot of the time someone else can do it and do it better and quicker, right? So this delegate category is where a lot of people need to exercise more of their authority in delegating things. And then the final category is delete, which is like things do not need to be done, aren't a priority or a waste of time. Social media or things that aren't great for you. Things that like they're not serving the company or the business, they're not helping you, they're not building a more meaningful life or nurturing your relationships.

Claude:

I know it simplifies category, and now it puts you in perspective. Okay, what uh where am I putting this right now? Which one?

Laurel:

The people I work with, they feel like everything is in that do category. Like it all needs to be done and it needs to be done today. Sometimes that is true. There is something that needs to be done today. And if you have some control over your schedule and you can book out periods of deep work where you can concentrate on something for a long period of time, you're gonna get way more done and think more deeply and be more strategic about it. So this urgency that everything needs to get done now, it actually robs you of any strategy that might set you up for success, might help you work smarter, not harder.

Claude:

That's your each time. Work smarter, not harder. Working with those CEOs, do you think that they actually implement the layers or the 4Ds? Do they then also reciprocate to their team? Because I'm sure that the CEO is burnt out, I'm sure that everyone's team is burnt out.

Laurel:

Yeah, well, in in the therapy world, there's this saying, as above, so below, that like if the therapist is walking their talk, the clients are more likely to like follow through because they can sense, like, and I think it's the same in companies, it's the same in families. You know, when the kids see the parents working on healthy communication and making sure they are taking care of their own needs, then the kid feels more relaxed. The adults are okay, I'm okay. And you know what? I also am gonna take care of myself and I'm gonna be more empowered in my self-efficacy and my like initiative because I see we all need to take responsibility for ourselves. Whereas if mom is only taking care of other people and is constantly falling apart, the kid's gonna be more anxious because the adults maybe don't have it all together here.

Jess:

Yeah. Yeah, it's a good example of modeling. You had written an article about everything you should know if you're considering medical leave for burnout. Sharing with us what that first step is to take that time off.

Laurel:

Anyone that's considering medical leave for burnout, there's gonna be a lot of anxiety, even identity crisis. Who am I if I don't go to work every day? Who am I if I'm not practicing law or whatever field they're in? A lot of worry that people will think less of them if they go on leave, that it's a sign of weakness. Whereas if they had been in a major car accident or they needed to get medical care that was not for their mental health, like there wouldn't be as much anxiety and shame around it. There might still be some anxiety and shame around it, but not to the degree. My experience with the people I've worked with who have taken medical leave for burnout is that it goes pretty smoothly. It they get less resistance and less shame and criticism than they expect. FMLA, medical leave, it's legally protected. You get 12 weeks a year that's covered in some state. I'm in California, we're very lucky. Our short-term state disability insurance covers this. So you actually get a portion of your pay while you're on leave. And many companies also have a medical leave policy where you do get some pay. Financial anxiety can be a significant part of it. But the first step is to go to your HR department or look at your benefits package and evaluate like what is the feasibility of taking leave here? What's the procedure? What are the first steps? Um, because it's going to be different if you're at a major company versus someone in my practice. So that's the first step.

Jess:

Knowing that our community is all about work besties and thinking about things that they themselves can better. From your perspective, what does a strong support system look like?

Laurel:

Knowing you are loved and cared for and feeling that same love and care for them, right? It's a felt sense of care and community. There's kind of a systemic equilibrium. When one person really needs a break or is in poor health, the other, the rest of the system will support them. And then when they come back to health, they will care for others. That there's this, this like homeostasis that gets maintained within the relationship or the family or the work environment.

Jess:

Laurel, do you have a work bestie yourself?

Laurel:

Ooh, I'm lucky. I have a bunch. Um, I am part of a mastermind group. We meet every other week and we just organized ourselves. We met at a conference three years ago, and I had just started my group practice, my multi-clinician practice, and I knew I needed some work besties because I know many therapists, but I didn't know that many people doing what I was doing. So I went to this conference and I specifically organized a lunch for people that like had similar business models. And then we like met on Zoom and we like created this group. We got very lucky. Like we intentionally sought out these relationships. I have a group of people that we have such complementary skills. One person, like she's the finance girl, one girl is the marketing person. Like one person is like the HR and culture person, and then I'm the systems girl. Like, so we have this really great symbiotic relationship, the four of us, and we we travel together a couple times a year. We pick a fun city, and then we go do a very intense working weekend, and then we go have some fun in that city too. So, yes, I'm very lucky. I have three work besties, and I'll give them a shout-out, Amy, Courtney, and Veronica. And I would not be where I am today, and I would not be as balanced and kind of healthy in my approach to the being the ambitious therapist I am if I didn't have them.

Jess:

I love that you guys found each other and found a way to continue this. That's that's amazing.

Claude:

And and I think also what was great is that you realized you needed that. So you seeked out. It's like seeking those people and also, like you say, being vulnerable earlier, right?

Laurel:

We are so vulnerable with each other. We talk about what we're struggling with, and we're very direct with each other. Hey, you are not doing this, and your business isn't growing or your business is suffering because of it. And we just created this culture of being very loving but very direct with each other.

Claude:

You're holding each other accountable, you're not just being vulnerable. Which is really what is friendship, right? You don't want to always have a yes, no, no, no. You want someone to say, okay, you're going crazy right now.

Laurel:

Yeah, it's the radical candor construct. The radical candor is like you care personally and challenge directly. And if you're not doing one of those things, your communication is incongruous and and not as impactful as it could be.

Jess:

But Laurel, um, how can our listeners connect with you?

Laurel:

The best way is our website, Laureltherapy.net. We do have Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. Um, if people are looking to start therapy, please go through the website. You can email us info at lauraltherapy.net. That comes right to me, and I'm happy to be in touch.

Jess:

I love that. We have one last question for you. Yeah. What's that one piece of advice you'd give your younger self knowing what you know now?

Laurel:

I was very lucky in that I received the advice that I would give. Um, I was 17, and this teacher said it's gonna be a lot easier to be yourself at 27 than it is to be yourself at 17. And I think that that continues because it was you it was so much easier to be myself at 37 than it was to be 27. So I'm hoping the trend just keeps going and looking good so far.

Jess:

That's awesome. Thank you so much for this. This has really been healing for us. Oh yes for our work bestie community. We so appreciate you sharing those transformational tools, and I hope our work bestie community takes hold of them.

Claude:

Work besties. If this resonated, please share it with someone who's burning out or healing from trauma. Let's normalize recovery as part of work culture and hit the subscribe and share with your work besties. Thank you. See you next week.

Jess:

Remember, whether you're swapping snacks in the break room, rescuing each other from endless meetings, or just sending that perfectly timed meme. Having a work bestie is like having your own personal hype squad.

Claude:

So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the chaos, and of course, thriving. Until next time, stay positive, stay productive, and don't forget to keep supporting each other. Work besties!

People on this episode

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Claude F

Co-host
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Jess K

Co-host
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Laurel van der Toorn

Guest