Work Besties Who Podcast

The Personality Trap: How Your Values (Not Your Skills) Shape Your Relationships & Career with Eric Gee

• Work Besties Who Podcast • Season 2 • Episode 76

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Ever feel like you’re doing all the “right” things at work or in your relationships… and still feel off?

In this episode, Jess & Claude sit down with Eric Gee — educator, personality typologist, and author of The Power of Personality — to talk about why the real unlock isn’t more skills, it’s knowing who you are and what you truly value.

Eric has personality-typed over 50,000 people and created the Youtopia 16 framework, a values-based approach to personality that helps you stop fighting your nature and start using it. In this conversation, you’ll hear how your type shapes the way you work, lead, love, and even choose your work besties.

In this episode, we cover:

  • Why school and “adulting” push one value system on everyone
  • The difference between people who value safety & security vs excitement vs information
  • Why the “rule-followers” and the “firefighters” actually need each other (at work and at home)
  • How personality is not about what you’re good at, but what you’re drawn to
  • Why siblings raised in the same family can have wildly different personalities and paths
  • How leaders with different personalities (think Elon Musk vs a classic principal-type) show up so differently at work
  • Concrete vs abstract communicators — and why your coworkers sometimes feel like aliens
  • One simple shift you can make this week to show up more like yourself instead of who you think you’re “supposed” to be

Meet Eric Gee

Eric Gee is the founder of an education company focused on individualized growth, the creator of the Youtopia 16 personality framework, and author of The Power of Personality. He’s typed tens of thousands of people and spent over two decades helping teachers, teams, and leaders understand values-based personality so they can collaborate better and grow into the healthiest version of themselves.

Take the Youtopia 16 test & find Eric

🔹 Take the quiz: projectyoutopia.com or youtopiaproject.com
🔹 Book: The Power of Personality (available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and most major booksellers)

Try this Work Bestie Challenge 💎

  1. Take the Youtopia 16 assessment this week.
  2. Do one thing that’s aligned with your personality type — not something you “should” do.
  3. Share it with your work bestie and compare how your values show up differently at work.

Tag us and let us know what you find out!

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Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband

Jess K:

What if the reason you're stuck at work or in your relationship isn't about skills, but about knowing yourself well enough?

Claude F:

Our guest today, Eric G, has tapped over 50,000 people and spent two decades helping teams, leaders, and individuals unlock their potential.

Jess K:

He's the creator of the Utopia 16 as well as has an amazing book called The Power of Personality.

Claude F:

He's worked with everyone, from educators to entrepreneurs, to help them stop fighting their personality and start using it.

Jess K:

So as you listen, ask yourself what part of you have you been downplaying just to fit in?

Claude F:

And stay with us till the end, because Eric shares one simple, powerful shift to help you show up more like yourself this week. Hi, I'm Claude. And I'm Jess. We are corporate employees by day, entrepreneurs by night, and work besties for life.

Jess K:

Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up, laugh through the chaos, and thrive together in every industry. Work besties. Welcome, Eric.

Eric Gee:

Thank you for having me, even with my very hoarse, low voice. I'm uh getting over a bit of a cough.

Jess K:

So we thought we would kick off and get right into who you are. Can you take us back to a time when you felt like a total misfit? And that moment where you felt like what you're wired clashed with what your expectations were?

Eric Gee:

I always bring it back to school, and I think school is so influential in everyone's life. Um part of my personality typing methodology is based on differences in values. When we're in school, we're all taught like very, very specific values, like follow the rules. And the first thing you do is like figure out what the rules are in the class, like what your name is, put it exactly on the right part of type of paper that you have. And I think in general, like that didn't necessarily fit my value system, this like very structured linear approach. I do think it fits about half the population. So I think that's why students in general kind of flow into it and assume that it's the right way for everybody. But for me, I kind of felt like, well, I don't maybe want some of the things that everybody else wants. Maybe I felt like I should because I was being told that, but deep down inside, it wasn't particularly feeling right. As you get older, it's like they're kind of like you should get married, have kids, a nine to five job, buy a house. I was talking to my niece one time and she said I was really bad at adulting, which kind of hurt my feelings. And I was like, what is adulting to you? And she's like, Oh, it's easy, it's owning a house. I'm like, that's a really interesting form or like thought process in terms of adulting. But I was like, oh, okay, I didn't really think about it that way. Sometimes we're ingrained in with that, and I don't think it's the right approach, especially not for everybody. And that's what got me into personality typing methodology. And eventually I started my own education company, and I did that for about a decade. Um, so that's where the tens of thousands of people came in. We'd rather have about a thousand students a year, and I would teach my teachers how to use this mess of methodology to work individually with each student so that they weren't necessarily throwing their own bias onto the students.

Claude F:

There are a lot of personality tests out there. Yours, how does it differ? And what really is your personality test?

Eric Gee:

The easiest way to say it is it's animals. People remember that better. Like people will always remember if they're a fox, you know, they're like, oh, I'm a fox. Foxes love to be foxes, right? The the biggest like intellectual difference would be that I focus mainly on a difference of values versus a difference of a lot of personality tests, like go like, oh, you introverted or extroverted, or are you like more structured or are you more like spontaneous? And they or are you more skilled at this, or maybe skilled at this? And I'm more like, well, skill is more a point of practice. And introversion and extroversion doesn't really make sense because oftentimes we can be one at different moments depending on how connected we feel to the situation. And generally the context is determined by our own value system, right? If it's something that you value, if you're in a situation where it's like really mean something to you, then you're gonna be more outgoing because it's something that you have a lot of passion for. If you're not the biggest golf fan and you're in the middle of a golf match, yeah, you're gonna be kind of quiet because you really don't care. So I think that's kind of the biggest difference.

Claude F:

But isn't value being taught? You don't, you're not born with a value, you create them. And can value change within your, you know, you I find that most people can't change.

Eric Gee:

I think we grow. I always say we can grow into better versions of ourselves or worse versions of ourselves based on how mature we are. So I just waver based on when people say, Oh, well, you can develop my values because I sometimes feel like it's just someone trying to change you into what they are. If someone says, Oh, I don't really want to have kids, and someone says, Oh, don't worry, when you get older, you'll change your mind. It's like, hmm, why would you assume that someone's gonna change their mind just because they got older? Maybe it's your value and that's what happened to you. But I do think that, like, you know, the way I determine different pet personality packs is what I call them. The majority of people in the world value safety and security. So you can kind of tell that our society is kind of based on that, and that's kind of a good thing. So they're the typical, like, we follow the rules, not because we follow the rules because we're boring, we follow the rules because without structure and without a certain sense of uncertainty, then the world becomes unsafe. So I don't think that's a bad thing. I think a lot of elementary school teachers, high school principals, or principals in general do fit into that personality type, and it leaves kids feeling in a safe and secure world. But that's not everybody. And for every kindergarten teacher who knows they have half the class listening to the rules, there's about a third of the class that are running around grabbing things and throwing things up in the air and trying to figure out what's going on. And I think that's probably a better indicator of us as adults as well.

Jess K:

Eric, when when you talk about the typology of people, how do people come about this? Like what, why would they want to do this?

Eric Gee:

I think it's for everyone who's ever felt like different or felt like, wow, you know, my values are different than the ones that my parents are telling me, you know. I have a student who's told me one time, she's like, I don't want to grow up. And I told her, I was like, you know I know exactly how you feel. You do have to grow older. You don't have to grow up in the way that you think you have to grow up or the way that your parents been telling you you have to grow up. We all have our own growth arc, and it is often determined by our personalities, and it's just difficult when about half the population kind of fits into one personality sphere because their values tend to get pushed on to everybody else. And I'm not saying they're bad values, it's great that they have them, but it also kind of underappreciates everyone else.

Claude F:

So going back to the kindergarten where everybody doesn't always follow the rules. But shouldn't they? Because at the end of the day, you're in a class, right? Your value is not to listen, so you're going to run around the class non-stop, but it is not always socially acceptable because you still, you know, you're bothering people, you you still need to have control. So how do you I know exactly what you mean?

Eric Gee:

How do you be the perfect the warden while also being the therapist one-on-one? You know, and obviously in a kindergarten class or any time when you have like a teacher with a like a large set of students, you kind of have to work towards the majority. So I totally get it. Like I'm not saying that teachers do anything wrong. I taught my teachers and they were dealing with their students in a one-on-one capacity. So when I I use that reference point where you have the kids listening and the kids throwing things around, that those are kind of the two most populous personality packs. And what I would always tell my teachers is you have to understand that the one that throws things around, their value system is totally different. And you cannot change that. If you try to change it, that's not healthy for them and it's not gonna be particularly effective for you. So, like that personality pack, the one that's throwing things around and maybe not necessarily following the rules, they're the type who, if you tell them, hey, if you do not eat the cookies from the cookie jar, because if you do, like let's say a parent tells their kid that, if you take that cookie, I'm gonna slap you. Their mindset is going to be, hmm, I wonder, is that cookie worth the slap?

Jess K:

Worth the slap. Right.

Eric Gee:

Yeah, and and the parent is gonna be, no, you don't understand. I want you to not do it because you should respect my authority as the parent. You should not be thinking this way. But that's just the way they think. And if you don't have that, like we wouldn't have effective firefighters, we didn't wouldn't have effective like pilots, we wouldn't have effective people in roles that they have to take calculated chances like that in situations where life doesn't really have rules. Like a fire does not have any set rules. You're in a house on fire, you don't know what's gonna happen, and you need to be able to adjust and make quick decisions like that. And the person who's constantly needs that feeling of safety and security often does not necessarily make the right decisions, or they tend to get like stuck, right? So I think everyone has value.

Claude F:

Don't you think that firefighters do have a set of rules? I mean, they cannot do whatever they want, or it can be worse for their teammate. So I like I like what you say about calculated risk, but I do believe they still have rules.

Eric Gee:

They have they are set on their craft. So it's the equivalent of let's say if you have a musician, the rules that a musician follows are like look, this is like a note, this is the scale. You know, these are like the techniques that I follow and that I've worked on my entire life. But in terms of you telling me how to make a song, no, I'm gonna do it my way, right? And then when I do this song, I'm not even gonna like let's say I had a lot of success in my first album, you know, my second album, I'm totally gonna change it up and do things a totally different way because that's who I am. Because that personality pack, they don't value safety and security, they value excitement. And you can imagine when two people have those competing values, how they might clash, right? I always say, like, the person who values excitement goes on a roller coaster because they want to feel like they might die. They know they're not gonna die, but they love that feeling of maybe I might die because I'm getting thrown around. Whereas the person who values safety and security is like, why would I ever want to feel that way at all? They tend to actually get along really well together. That's the most common couple, romantic coupling, by the way. Yes, exactly, because they know the person who values safety and security, they might seem a little boring. So if they match up with someone just like them, they might be like, Oh God, we're gonna have a boring life together. They love that person who's really exciting and fun. And then, of course, the exciting person's like, well, they realize I can't have someone like me. We're gonna burn hot and we're gonna burn fast. Like every Hollywood romance, right? Like actors tend to be like that. Actors tend to be that personality pack that likes excitement. So they burn hot and fast, but so often they look for someone who's a little steadier, and so they balance each other.

Jess K:

That totally feels like us. I'm the boring one. You're the stable. I wouldn't say boring.

Claude F:

I would say the one that likes security. Yeah, I need rules, otherwise, I'm going insane.

Eric Gee:

I could sense that from your questions.

Claude F:

Yeah.

Eric Gee:

You're the bird, you're the bird. No one likes really that's the best comparison I can come up with.

Jess K:

We do need birds in our world, though. Yeah, we do. We do. I totally agree. Exactly. I'm like, you need rules. Oh sorry, firefighters have rules. I mean, this also to bring it back to the majority of our people are more in corporate America, and this does feel very similar to that, too, right? We're not defending against fires every day. It feels like it. Yeah, they think we are. They think we are. But the same thing, like, there are so many times where we're stuck having to stick to the rules, yeah, and then you hear me complaining because I'm like, I just want to do this instead of that. Why do I have to jump through 18 hoops to get to this one thing when it's right there? It's right there. And me, I would be like, well, because it's a process. Yes.

Eric Gee:

I'm like, Yeah, depending on the sector, right? The sector, your sector could have a lot of different personalities too within it. And they tend to do like I worked with a lot of software for engineering companies, and you have the ones that work nine to five and have a very steady, like organized, like structure. They know when they're gonna go, they know what their objectives and they're trying to hit, and they lead teams to try to reach these objectives and keep everyone together. But you also have like the firefighters who are on 24-7, and I think they're called in software engineering terms, they're called the knock team, if I'm correct. And they go in there if there's a problem with the website. So they gotta be on 24-7, right? Because people are on the web 24-7. So if there's a problem, they get in there right away and fix it. And they like it, they love being on there.

Jess K:

Like Eric, I when people come to you for these quizzes, what's the most common reason they're coming? Is it because of team dynamics? Is it just to learn? What would be the rationale?

Eric Gee:

Depending on who it is, but probably the majority of people just want to know who they should hook up with. I think that's the number one thing. They're like, okay, what personality am I, and who should I be looking for? Who should I bang tonight? Oftentimes, what they're thinking about.

Jess K:

Not the answer I was expecting.

Eric Gee:

I've had like, I've done talks at a professional office, and I do the whole like, oh, this is how you guys are gonna work together, and this is why this person is bossy, in quotes, and this is why this person is a little more free-flowing, and just appreciate it, guys. And I'm having this whole discussion, and then at the way in, I'm like, oh, does anyone have any questions? And then the first question, so if I'm this type, who should I be looking for as a mate? That's the number one question that people ask. I don't have any set answers because I don't believe in a soulmate per se. I do think that certain types do gel better with other types, and it's not going to be a type that's like you. You're gonna get definitely sick or annoyed with a type that's exactly like you.

Jess K:

Well, it could not be with a type like me. That would definitely set me off.

Eric Gee:

Yeah, which is good. That's your natural instincts, right? Like in general, people understand that, but that's generally what people want. And I don't know who they should up with. But I often work with students, and with the students, I'm really just teaching them how to grow into the best possible version of themselves versus the best possible version of what they're being told they should be like.

Jess K:

That is a great segue into where our WordQuesting community is and how they all want to level up their skill set, knowing the different types of personalities, what are some of the things that they will learn from that too will help them get to that next level.

Eric Gee:

When it comes to the next level, we often think of skills, right? But with personality, it's great because it's not, I think a lot of people like learning about personality types because they want to know what I am good at. And I'm like, well, just because you're a certain personality doesn't mean you're automatically going to be brilliant at one thing. I have a friend who is the same personality type as Einstein, and he's always like, I'm the same personality type in Einstein, but that doesn't automatically make anyone like our personality type a genius. Einstein was a genius. He's like, I know a hell of a lot about fantasy football and massage therapy. So I'm just a nerd about those two things. That is what I am, because it's that type really loves information. That's what they seek, and they're total nerds about it, which you can imagine someone like that would be very much like Einstein, right? But the nice thing about personality, it tells us kind of what we're gonna like. And the things that we like, we tend to do more often. So, what I would recommend your listeners is find out what personality type you are, because ideally you might be doing something that maybe you're forcing yourself to like, and maybe finding out your personality type will help you go, oh, that makes sense because I've always liked to do things like this, and it'll give you almost like a permission slip to actually pursue those things. And the more you do them, then the better we get, and thus our skills rise.

Claude F:

And so the framework is utopia 16. Doesn't mean that it's 16 personality.

Eric Gee:

And that's gonna be a number that's familiar to a lot of people because the MBTI, the Myers-Briggs, also uses that. But my methodology is very different to get to those 16 different types. And in the book, it explains the differences. So in a Myers-Briggs, the difference between I'm gonna be saying a lot of random letters here, the difference between an ENTP and an INCP would be in Myers-Briggs' terms, one would be extroverted and the other would be an introverted version. Um, in my methodology, it's completely different based on their value system. And since those types value information, then the difference in personality is gonna manifest itself in that way.

Jess K:

Is there something that like is similar to being introvert versus extrovert that you would be able to tell from a value statement?

Eric Gee:

So mine breaks down because depending on what personality type you are, uh you'll get that way in a very different methodology. Introversion, extroversion does tend to work. And I explain it in the book for like half the population, because that population that values safety and security, their number one way that they get that safety and security is being part of a structured society, right? They're very involved in the social system. So thus extroversion, introversion does kind of have a priority for them, right? How do they interact with people in a social situation? But if your value system is information, you could care less about people and personality effects. Sometimes that often is the case where they're just like, I don't care about I'm here for information. And then people say, Oh, they're autistic, or they're serial killers or sociopaths, you know, and it's a small percentage of the population, too, so they get kind of pushed off to the side. Um, but we need people like that. Einstein was that way. The difference will be the way that that extroversion, introversion manifests is totally different. It would be like the difference between an experimental physicist and a theoretical. One gets the processes or information by experimenting and trying different things, and the other processes information by theorizing and observing.

Claude F:

What does value mean? Is it like when you see the values? Is it because my value is like the picket fans and all that? So, how do you define values?

Eric Gee:

I define values based on what do we want, right? So it's not the what, but the why, right? So you could have multi multiple writers. You could see they're doing the same thing, but they're not the same personality type just because they're writing, right? No one sees Hemingway and thinks he's the same as Tolstoy. Someone who values safety and security might want the white picket fence, or they might want something else that gives them safety and security. They might want to move up in their job and level up in their job and have like authority within that job sector. That person who wants that safety and security through a job versus the person who wants that safety, security versus the white picket fence with a family, they can often be very similar, right? Because they have the same value system and they're gonna get along and they're gonna understand each other very well. Speaking for my mom, who was that person who valued authority and wanted safety and security from feeling like she was important, she did move up the ranks in her work environment, but she didn't necessarily love being a mother. That wasn't her priority. And a lot of other people who love being parents would be like, oh my God, I can't believe that. But she was a good parent. She did everything she was supposed to, but that wasn't a particular value system for her. But she would totally get along with someone who valued that because she would see, oh, we both value safety and security. Whereas the person who values like information, there's going to be a big conflict.

Jess K:

All right, I get that. In in your framework, can you give us examples of other well-known or even fictional characters and what they style they would be in your in your 16 framework so we kind of get a sense?

Eric Gee:

I mean, I sometimes use comic book. Almost everyone's seen the Avengers and Marvel stuff. So I'll use that sometimes. Like Iron Man. Iron Man's a very clear example, someone who prioritizes information. And Captain America is someone who prioritizes safety and security. And it's kind of cool because you can see their clash. They're both heroes, they both want what's right, but they have very, very different methodologies of how to get there. Whereas like Captain America is all about sacrifice because that's a very strong value system of his. Uh Captain Iron Man is more about sacrifice, it's great, but it's also kind of stupid. I'm all about information, so I'm gonna troubleshoot this. What's the line where Captain America is like, would you fall on a wire to sacrifice to help the guy behind you? Iron Man's like, I'll just figure out a way to cut it. And we but we need both those people, right? We we need both those. That's very uh important.

Claude F:

And that can like you say before, you know, those two people can learn from each other.

Eric Gee:

Yes, yes, that's the important thing, too, is I'm a big believer in growth. Once you're very secure in who you are, it's good to borrow from other types because they're gonna have strengths that you do not have. I always say our strengths are based on our weaknesses. My personality type, my big flaw was that I get super excited and enthusiastic about stuff, and I start a lot of things, and I don't finish any of them. So it's good to know that because you can consciously I'm like, okay, I need to finish at least some of the things that I start. Now I'm not gonna be able to finish all of them. I know that about me, but I can't be like that dog, like playing with a toy and then a frisbee gets thrown and I go chase the frisbee all the time, right? And there are other types who are like constantly, they don't start anything that they can't finish. So I can learn a lot from that type, and I can ask them, oh, like, how are the ways that you finish the things that you start? And then they can teach you, oh, I I make a plan and all that kind of stuff. And you don't have to do all those things, but I think it's good to borrow some of those things so that we can grow.

Jess K:

Right. You can learn from each other. I love that. So I'm curious if you have an idea of what you think our two types are.

Eric Gee:

Well, you you gave it away already a little bit. So I mean, I love to guess that when uh you were asking the questions about, but we have to follow the rules, right? Because there has to be order, right? You can't have non-order. That definitely shows that your value system is safety and security. I'd imagine like your greatest fear is chaos or just things like with no absolute rules at all.

Claude F:

Well, yeah, because I'm a mess in my mind. No, it's true. I'm a mess in my mind. So I need exactly I need order and processes all over. I'm going to be all over the place. Like you see my desk, it's like uh a bomb came up, but I have to like otherwise I need process or it won't work for me.

Eric Gee:

Here's a question: Do you value like the idea of authority? Like, like do you believe in like a structure of authority? Like I follow the person above me, and then they follow the person above them, and so forth.

Claude F:

Well, when you say yes, I still have this respect, right? I'm not going, I'm never going to say you're an idiot to my superior because they are my superior, right? At the end of the day. So I am going to say if I don't agree with something, I will say it.

Jess K:

I don't agree because one, two, and three respectfully.

Claude F:

But if at the end they say no, it's going to be my way, then I'm like, okay, I say my point of view, peace out.

Jess K:

Would you ever quit a job if it got really that bad where they were like you have to job and you're like, no, I don't agree. I quit a job because of a boss. Oh terrible. Well, not just the boss, but I mean like the the vanishing of values.

Claude F:

No, because I tend to see the same value. I had I think I had the same value as my boss. Actually, except the last one. That's why I left. I didn't, yeah, I left. Because I couldn't say my point of view. Got it.

Eric Gee:

Did you did you when you have you you've watched Game of Thrones?

Claude F:

Yes, but or those I forgot who those people were. You forgot a lot of? Yeah, oh no. We'll go bench watch it.

Eric Gee:

You should. I have a there's a Game of Thrones test on my site so you can figure out what Game of Thrones character you are.

Jess K:

Oh my god, I want to take that.

Eric Gee:

Yeah, it's funny because it's based on I mean, yeah, you're an Arya Stark. Okay, well, number one, everybody says they are Arya Stark because she's so cool and everyone likes her and she's very lovely.

Jess K:

She's now in The Last of Us.

Eric Gee:

Uh Bella Ramsey?

Jess K:

Uh yes. She was like the uh I forget the name of her character, but yeah, I like she was.

Eric Gee:

She's a Mormon. Yeah, she's a moron. So for you, like but you definitely gelled with that hunter. So I call them gatherers and hunters, the two packs that value safety and security, and one values excitement. Because I kind of use it based on our roles in medieval villages, right? We need most of all, we need the most gatherers, so that's why we have more gatherers in the world, right? And then we need a lot of hunters as well, but hunting is dangerous, so some of them die. And kind of like in our society, hunting jobs or hunting, jobs are not to say that you're you have a short lifespan or expected lifespan, but sometimes they tend to take jobs. My sister's a hunter. The first job she got out of college was on a deep-sea Alaskan fishing boat, and that's actually a dangerous job. Now, she was not actually like the fisherman because she was not physically strong enough, but that's like the she was on the boat, she was in Alaska, and she was like checking out the like what the their catch to see if like they were supposed to catch it or they weren't. That's a job that a hunter, like who a person who likes excitement, would like. They're just like, no, I don't want a nine to five, I want to go on a boat for like four months out of the year, you know? So I I understand. So you seem a little hunter-ish, but since you like that character, the Mormon character, but you only because you said she was badass, right? Like if she's really tough, you maybe might be like Arya Stark. Aria Stark's a shark personality type, and she's a hunter. Hunters are like the larger pack, and then there's four animals within each of the four packs. So four times four, of course, makes 16. So the shark is one of the hunters, and they they're pretty tough and they're aggressive, even though you don't seem to come off as mean. So I don't know if you're a shark. Sharks sometimes come off as mean. Would you say you're more how would how do you come off?

Jess K:

I don't know. In the work environment, I can be mean? Yeah.

Claude F:

I don't think you're mean in the work environment. No.

Jess K:

I'm very straightforward.

Eric Gee:

One of the flaws of a shark is that they're stubborn because a shark is like, okay, I mean I see what I want, I kill it. You know, like they're very, you know. Yeah, I mean, they're very so their stubbornness is negative, right? But they're positive. The positive part of that is they're also like really determined, right? So Arya, of course, is like super determined. Is she pretty narrow-minded? Sometimes she can be, right? And she's and it hurts her a bit, and she's a bit reckless sometimes. Um, other sharks on Game of Thrones are like Tyrion's friend Braun, he's a shark. Jamie Lannister is not a shark, but he's similar in a lot of ways. Anyway, I'm sorry, I don't want to keep using pop culture references that people will probably not understand, but just it helps relate a little bit more.

Claude F:

Yeah, I kind of get it more. Those value, are you born with it, or it just happened like with what happened with your life? What do you think? Before I'm going to say that because I was um rhythmic gymnast from my youth, doing competition and everything. You need orders, like we had our um choreographer saying, You jump, we say, How high? Right? There was no saying she was Russian too. So, I mean, I'm sure she's still Russian, but so she was very metallical, and it was like you do that authoritative, and you had no choice but follow the rules or you were out, which brought us to higher so that shaped my personality as well, because I was like from the age of 11 to 18 to know that I had to follow the rules of someone. The hierarchy. So that's why it doesn't mean that you wouldn't have had that. I would not have had it before or would have.

Eric Gee:

I I don't know. And the question of whether we're born with it or not, I have no answer to that because I don't know. I do think there's a difference between I say our personality is based on like what we grew up with, like what we're taught, but also our personality type, right? Because I always say people often say, Oh, I'm part of this culture, how this culture is, right? But I know what the stereotype of that culture is, but for every Japanese person who like does not like physical touch and will bow and is not gonna hug you, there's a peacock personality type because they make up like 8% of the population, and peacocks always love to hug. Once again, Game of Thrones, they're like Robert Barackhean, the big king, the big fat king who loves to bear hug everybody. And if they grow up in Japan as a kid, they're gonna have problems. Like their parents are gonna say, no, no, no, this is the proper way to do it, and they're gonna kind of feel like left out. And on the flip side, I have a friend who's Cuban, and in Latin culture, it's oftentimes a lot about kissing and hugging your friend family, and he's a shark, so he's like, do not touch me. This is my space, do not do that. But he's forced to. And so I do think it's a mixture of that, where sometimes how we're brought up is not necessarily what totally matches our personality, and that can be unhealthy for us. And part of our growth process is learning those things are important and they make us who we are, but also this is actually my personality type. And maybe now that I'm 40 or 50 or 60 or whatever, I want to explore this and be truly happy.

Claude F:

Maybe if I wasn't into the safety, I would not have continued the sport because it would not have gone with my values. That's it.

Jess K:

I I was gonna say, I think it's a little bit of both. Yeah, your upbringing helps bring some of this out to light, but I don't think your your family values create your own values, it just helps you figure them out.

Claude F:

Yeah.

Jess K:

Because I think the element is you. That's what makes us also a unique and individual. It's thinking how many families, think of my own, like all my siblings have very distinct personalities. Do we all mesh and get along? Yeah, but politically we're not all the same. Like we're all very different, and we were all both raised by the same two parents.

Claude F:

Oh, yeah, my sister and I are totally different.

Jess K:

So I think I think it's both, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Eric Gee:

I love using like how you use your siblings. That's the whole point of my book, too, is like I'm saying things that I want people to identify with, not because they're reading it and they're going, oh, I'm gonna listen to these things, but more like reading and going, like they start saying, Oh, I know this person, and obviously, who do we know more than our family and our siblings and our parents, right? That's the number one thing. And you know, I said before, and it was kind of jokingly that people want to know who they want to hook up with. And that actually is truly the first question that people have. But if they're being honest, like the second one is if they're parents, they're always gonna go, like, oh, no wonder why my kid is like, this is the kid that I hate, and this is the kid I love, you know, like they start going, oh, it's not because this kid's an asshole. Yeah, they well, they they they do say that way jokingly, right? They're like, No wonder I hate my son. It's more like, oh, okay, because we probably have competing personalities, whereas this other kid, we're more similar. Oftentimes, the parents, like out of my teachers, the ones who were parents were the ones who got it right away when when I taught them this, they were like, Oh, I totally understand this because now I know how to treat my children differently. And sometimes they're already treating their children differently, just instinctively, right? Because they're like, Okay, this is not gonna work with this kid, so I gotta use different things. My father treated us all differently, and he knew nothing about personality tax, but I think he instinctively did. And so he gave my sister all the freedom in the world. He called me dumb shit for my entire life because he knew that I worked best with a chip on my shoulder, and then my little brother's nickname was Mr. Wonderful. Those are all different methodologies, and they all worked because he knew that my younger brother, he loved safety and security, so he needed that comfort zone. He, you know, if you tweak it tweaked him a little bit, that would not be very effective, right? But for me, like I work on principle. So thus he wanted to like tweak that because he knew that I would work better and be highly motivated if I felt like I was being wronged in some way. So that worked. We can all learn how to work with um understand our family better through personality.

Jess K:

Well, and I think work-wise too, right? Yeah. When you're thinking about you manage a team, maybe the only slight difference is understanding based on where you are in the pecking order, right? The oldest, the middle, the youngest does play into it too. And I think some of your personalities shift and parent parenting styles shift because of that. But from a workwise, you could relate that to those that have been in your team for a while, those that are anywhere.

Claude F:

And and you you have to manage differently. Depending on the personality. On the personality and what is going to drive that person. Their values.

Jess K:

It comes back to the values. You're right.

Claude F:

Exactly.

Jess K:

You're right. Because you can think about like there's certain individuals that are they are amazing individuals, but not as motivated as the rest. And it's because of their values. And how do you get them to relate to the work in a different way? Because it's not going to be the same as somebody who's a rule follower. You just tell them the rules and they go with it.

Eric Gee:

And mention the two packs that make up about half the population and a third, but that leaves about like 15 to 16 percent of people. And there's those make there are two packs within those 15 or 16%. So those are, for lack of a better term, minority packs. When you encounter people like that, it's often like people are like, wait, what is this person? Who is this person? Like, why are they so weird? You know, and I say weird, I'm one of the packs, so I've gotten that quite a bit actually. It can throw people off, especially in a work environment. You're like, wait, what is wrong with this person? Why are they so different in terms of their motivation structure than everyone else? And so it's it behooves us to like understand all the types, and especially because those types do tend to get lost because of the dichotomy that everyone knows is that the bird and earny, the odd couple dichotomy, that's a very common one, and people kind of understand that, you know. And once again, that makes about 85% of the population, but there is that other 15% that, you know, where the Einsteins go into or the, I don't know, like the very spiritual people go into.

Jess K:

Eric, what's the most common personality type for leaders? And then like give us examples of like maybe an eccentric leader like Elon Musk versus a more common leader?

Eric Gee:

That's a great question because you know, it goes back to that whole like people like, oh, what personality type am I? Because I want to know what I'm good at. Leading is great because just like writing, I think everybody, every personality type can be a leader in their own way, but they're gonna, it's best for them to lead in their own way, the one, the style that fits for them, right? So if you're a stag personality type, so that's part of the gatherer pack, the safety and security, you're gonna lead, I won't say through fear. At your worst, you're gonna lead through fear, but you're gonna lead with authority. You're gonna be like, hey, I'm in charge, and orders go down. My mom was that type. So she was a school principal, and so I always told her, like, yeah, you're big on authority. She's like, No, I don't care. And I'm like, okay, what if someone parked in your parking space? Because she would have a parking space, right? The best parking space at her school, right? And she's like, Yeah, but no one would ever do that. I'm like, see, that's exactly that mentality that no one would ever park in your parking space, shows exactly how you think. That this is my I'm the authority, right? Um but there are other types that lead in, like, so Elon Musk is a great example. He is a Smith. Smiths are part of that personality pack that value information. So they're the ones that often people think are artistic or sociopaths, because they often, if you ask a Smith, like I had a parent ask me once because her kid was a Smith, and she's like, Is there something wrong with him? I mean, no, he's totally fine. This is his personality. Because what she said was, she's like, Oh, I was in this dress and I was getting ready for a party, and I asked him, How do I look? And he said, terrible. And then she was like, What? And he's like, Well, you asked. And she's like, Yeah, I she was telling me, she's like, I expect him to say, like, you look great, mom. And I'm like, Well, you know, he just he took you.

Claude F:

Why do you ask?

Eric Gee:

Yeah, exactly. He was like, Well, you he felt his best version of being a son was giving you an honest answer. So, but punch that up to a thousand in terms of like things that offend people, and that's when you get like people in the public sphere who are like Smiths, and people are like, Oh my god, are they autistic? So he leads through his priorities information, so he's kind of leading through that. He's a chimpanzee personality type. Are they the best leaders? They're great at like leading through innovation and kind of going, look, this is how I lead. I'm gonna give you guys ideas and this we're gonna follow. Am I gonna care about your social life? Am I gonna care about your family? Sorry, no, I don't care. Like, I just want us to create the best invention possible. So, Steve Jobs, same personality as Elon Musk, known for not being the most sensitive of individuals. But as long as you understand that and understand what they bring to the table and appreciate that, then I think that's like a start, right? They're not gonna be the people who care about, who ask you about your wife and kids or your you know, husband and kids.

Claude F:

So the goal to know the personality, those personalities ultimately how to know how to communicate with them, correct?

Eric Gee:

Yes, that's like a really great um like skill set to have through personality, is like, because you're gonna know like everyone communicates at a different level too, based on our values. And some people are abstract communicators, some people are concrete. That's probably the biggest divide. And about 85% of the population are concrete. For an abstract person, they're used to assimilating, right? They're used to being around people who say, Oh, what did you eat today? Oh, well, I ate a bagel and cream cheese, and I got it at this place, and it's one of my favorite places. And I go there every morning and I drive there in my this car that I bought at this dealership or online. Like they're used to those very concrete conversations, but an abstract conversation is very different and difficult, sometimes difficult for concrete people. I was once with like four of my teachers with one concrete person and three abstract people, which is a very uncommon situation, like in general population. And they just one person started talking about John Carpenter, and then another person started jumping on top of that about oh, this is my favorite movie because I love the theme of this, and when they did this, and and the concrete person was just like, she's like, Oh my god, like, are these people aliens? Like, what am I listening to right now?

Jess K:

Where are they going?

Eric Gee:

Yeah, what is going on with this conversation? So it just so like communication, sorry, that was a long-winded answer, but I think knowing whether you're a concrete personality type or an abstract personality type also helps because I think it's good to be able to do both if possible, but still stay true to yourself as well at the same time.

Claude F:

What is the communication for abstract?

Eric Gee:

So, abstracts they tend to like to talk about their feelings and ideas, and that's often how concrete people treat abstract people is like, no, no, I don't care about all that abstract stuff. Let's go to nuts and bolts. Like, how is that affecting like real people in their real lives in the physical world? And that's the difference.

Jess K:

That's helpful for sure. Um, Eric, how would people find out about um these different 16 personalities? What would you recommend for people to do if they're interested in more?

Eric Gee:

Buy this wonderful book called The Power of Personality. You can find it on Amazon or anywhere you buy books, go to Barnes and Noble, you can order it from there or your local bookstore. If you're really interested in this and you want to know more, I would go on my website. You can take the test at either I have two sites, business site. Um, one is projectutopia.com, and that's utopia with like YOU, like YouTube. Um, and the other is utopiaproject.com. So you just flip them around, and you can actually take the test on either of those sites. And once you take the test and you you'll get a description, and if you like what you're reading, and if it like gels with you, and you think you can want to learn more, then I definitely recommend buying the book because the book is basically me teaching you how to become the test and read and understand the people around you.

Jess K:

So we did have one last question. What's that one simple, powerful shift that you think can help people show up better to make themselves them, make them more about themselves this week?

Eric Gee:

Or this this I would definitely recommend taking the tests online, finding what personality type you are, reading the Porsche though, and seeing if it matches, because I always say I always recommend finding the one that speaks to you. Because once you find what speaks to you, then for this week, at least do one thing that you really enjoy. Like, not something that you ha feel like you have to do, because I think so much of our lives we're told what we have to do, but think of something that you truly want to do. Oh, today's the first day that I'm gonna meditate. Find that one thing you want to do today based on your personality type.

Jess K:

Huge thank you to Eric G for helping us rethink how we show up at work and in life.

Claude F:

Because personality isn't something to fix, it's the foundation for connection, clarity, and growth.

Jess K:

Whether you're navigating team tensions or just trying to feel more yourself at work. And remember, self-knowledge isn't a luxury, it's a really dossier tool. So tag your work bestie and take that utopia 16 assessment together. You might be total opposites or a perfect treason piece. And if you've ever been told to tone it down to fit in, this is your reminder. Your difference is your edge. Follow us at Work Besties Who Podcasts for more conversations that help you show up at work and in life with confidence and clarity. And a whole lot more you. Thank you. Remember, whether you're swapping snacks in the break room, rescuing each other from endless meetings, or just sending that perfectly timed meme. Having a work bestie is like having your own personal hype squad.

Claude F:

So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the chaos, and of course, thriving. Until next time, stay positive, stay productive, and don't forget to keep supporting each other. Work besties!

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Claude F

Co-host
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Jess K

Co-host
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Eric Gee

Guest