Collaborate & Influence: How to Make Meetings Actually Work with Jodie Goldberg

Bad meetings are not just annoying. They are expensive.

In this episode of Work Besties Who Podcast, Jess and Claude sit down with Jodie Goldberg to talk about how meetings can either build connection, clarity, and trust — or completely drain the room.

Jodie shares why better meetings start with intention, not just an agenda. From setting a clear purpose to creating meeting norms, managing over-talkers, making quieter voices feel heard, and replacing random icebreakers with true relational strategies, this conversation is full of practical ways to make meetings more human and more effective.

We also talk about why not everyone needs to speak out loud to feel included, how physical space impacts participation, and why a great meeting is not about whether it is 15 minutes or 60 minutes — it is about how intentionally it is designed.

If you have ever sat in a meeting thinking, “This could have been an email,” this episode is for you.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Why connection at work needs to be intentional
• The difference between icebreakers and relational strategies
• How to create meeting norms that actually help people participate
• What to do when one voice dominates the room
• How to make decision-making meetings more effective
• Why quieter team members may need different ways to contribute
• How better meeting design can lead to stronger collaboration

Your Supportive Work Besties,
Jess & Claude

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Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband

Transcript

Why Bad Meetings Cost More

Claude F 0:00

Bad meetings are just annoying. They're expensive. Because when people don't feel engaged or included, teams lose clarity and good ideas.

Jess K 0:10

Today, Jody Goldberg breaks down how collective intelligence can change the way we meet and work.

Claude F 0:16

Hi, I'm Claude .

Jess K 0:18

And I'm Jess.

Claude F 0:19

W e are corporate employees by day, entrepreneurs by night, and work besties for life.

Jess K 0:25

Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up, laugh through the chaos, and thrive together in every industry. Work besties. Work besties, welcome back. June is all about communication and transformation, how we collaborate, influence, and create better ways of working together.

Claude F 0:45

And today we are tackling one of the biggest places that all of that either comes alive or completely falls apart. Meetings.

Jess K 0:57

Jodi, welcome to Work Bestie Sue Podcast. You say people may show up for the content, but what they're truly seeking is connection. And I love that so much. What led you into this work?

Loneliness At Work And Connection

Jodie Goldberg 1:09

Well, hi everyone. Jess, Clyde, thank you for having me. So look, really, we are experiencing a true loneliness epidemic. Um, it's clear that as people, we just want to be seen. And as author Sherry Turkel says, she coined this term that I really believe in, which is that we might be surrounded by people, but we feel alone. And the the term she coined is we're alone together. Doesn't that like so bad, right? It really hits you. It does. And there are so many reasons why this is the case. First, social media, with the rise of social media and technology, we just haven't developed the soft skills needed to really have those face-to-face interactions. We're working in seemingly more remote work environments, which means that we have fewer opportunities to be in connection with other people. And now we have AI. AI is doing a lot of that connecting on behalf of us, right? Totally. It's true. And listen, as human beings, we just we crave connection. We do. A decades-long Harvard study shared that the quality of our rate relationships is the single strongest predictor of the quality of our lives. And yet, so many of us just don't know how to build those relationships and realize that it's a real skill and that it takes real skill, it takes real intention and real strategy. So all of these reasons sort of led me to really start thinking about that while while we crave connection, we just don't know how to design it. And really, this is one of the reasons why I've started to really partner with teams and organizations to help them see relationship building and connection as a strategic skill-based practice.

Jess K 2:47

We love this. This is kind of the whole reason why we started our podcast to begin with. When you think about going back to the pandemic in 2020 and coming back from that, the work face environment changed dramatically. And all of those areas and opportunities where people would find ways to connect weren't happening. And we noticed it. And then Claude and I became very close. We became work besties and we noticed really succinctly how anytime we were in the office and chatting and giggling, or even in Zoom meetings or team meetings or whatever type of organizational opportunity where we could lift each other up, the mode and the emotions from the others changed dramatically. And you just And still now.

Claude F 3:28

And still now, if you think about it, everybody's aware now. I I had a question because you just said designed, you know, those

Designing Connection With Key Factors

Claude F 3:36

connections. But for me, connection is something that is natural, that don't have to be designed. So how what does that mean?

Jodie Goldberg 3:44

Yeah, I think it's it's a great, um, it's a great question. So I'm not saying that we need to create artificial connections, but I think it's as leaders, we forget what it really means to help people feel like they can be in deep connection with one another. Um, and it means that different environments call for different strategies, right? If we're meeting for the first time with a group of people, we need to be strategic about the relationship-building practices that we want to put in place, right? Our job is to help create connection in the group. But if a group has been meeting for 20, you know, for 10 years over and over and over again, we're not gonna utilize an icebreaker question, like what's your favorite ice cream, right? Our job there is to help deepen connection. And I think as leaders, we forget that there's strategy behind this. So I think that's what makes it super challenging. I'll also share there are there, I like to say there are about seven different factors to consider as a leader in order to think about what is the best relational strategy to use. I like to say tone of the meeting or gathering. Is this an energetic tone or a more calm tone, right? Group size. I'm gonna have a different relational strategy if it's a larger group versus if it's a smaller group. Familiarity. How well does the group know each other? What are the factors that are going on internally within an organization, right? If there's a lot of unrest within an organization or a lot of tension, I'm gonna have a different strategy than if everything feels calm and peaceful. The same goes with externally. There's a lot of political unrest in our world or there's there are other things happening. It's my job as a leader to acknowledge that into the space as well. So these are just some of those factors to consider beyond familiarity when thinking about how do we help design relationships that feel intentional and authentic for the moment.

Jess K 5:43

And Jody, do you think, as you commented, there is this epidemic of loneliness? Do you find that there are certain ways that the manager should be providing that versus times when it's more peer-to-peer?

What Leaders Owe The Team

Jodie Goldberg 6:00

It's a great question. I think one of the most often misconceptions we have or leaders have about work is that it's not just their job to help their employees manage tasks, right? Part of what I think separates a manager from a leader is somebody who recognizes the role that relationships play in the workplace. And that it's actually the job of a leader to help manage some of those relationships. So while I know that peer relationships are important and those happen more organically, it's really the job of the leader, I think, or the manager to really take note of how do we help this person manage a task in front of them and also how do we help them feel seen, heard, and valued, right? Because when you feel seen, you feel more psychologically safe. And you when you feel more psychologically safe, you feel more empowered to take risks, to try things on, to be more creative in the work environment.

Jess K 6:51

That's interesting. Go ahead, Claude. You're mute. Um, I was gonna say that's interesting. So I agree with you that I think a manager helps facilitate that, creates that emotive um opportunity and really creates the sense of the team dynamic. But isn't there still a role and responsibility of those that are peer-to-peer, right? Because if you think about it, as as a I am a manager, right? As a manager of teams, I can only do so much. And yes, I do try and customize and create that sense of openness for each individual because uh everybody's different. But there are times there are times that managers can do that fully for you.

Jodie Goldberg 7:30

Yeah, no, and I didn't mean to minimize that. I think for managers, it's more about awareness. But we know the impact of having a work best friend, right? Um, like there were there was a Gallup poll that was done, which talked about how when you have a work best best friend in the workplace, like, you know, there's two. Exactly. Exactly. Um, and right, do you think though the role of the manager is to be aware, right, of what is happening. And I think a lot of times we see the managers really only aware of the tasks, right, rather than how to help like of the relationships and how like real workplace flourishing takes an awareness of what kinds of relationships are happening in the workplace, right? And it might not be the manager's job to help facilitate those all the time, but to be aware that it's about relationship management.

Jess K 8:20

Yeah. And so could we could we break that down? Because when you say that we don't want the manager, the manager does need to get tasks done. Of course. But it's not just about the tasks. It is about encouraging and making your employees feel seen and heard. What does that look like from your perspective?

Jodie Goldberg 8:37

Yeah. Um, well, I think it it just depends on the setting, right? But but I think part of what happens when you have an employ an employee who is especially new to the workplace, right? Like they're really trying to understand the culture of the work environment, right? And I think as a manager, it's their job to help to create part of that opening for them and invite them in, and also to create that space where they feel empowered, right? I I think it's really easy in a work environment to feel like your voice doesn't matter. And so I think as a manager, really creating that space to help understand your strengths and help to think about how we might capitalize those strengths within our work environment and beyond.

Claude F 9:21

Yeah. I think it's a bit like if we think about the manager being like a parent, right? They are going to schedule the play dates, but at the end of the day, it's up to the kids to be able to do their things. So I I do like that the manager, the job, of course, is the tasks, you know, making sure that all the delivery boards are being done, but at the same time, you know, like you say, being aware, but also encouraging those relationships within.

Jess K 9:53

Okay, so Jody, one of the things we were curious about from you and that we've seen from your background is in many cases, as a manager, you are bringing your whole team together, very different personality, very different ideologies and things that they personally want to get across. And you are there to get a task done. From your perspective, what is the areas where things could go wrong or could go right when you bring them all together?

Purpose And Norms That Change Meetings

Jodie Goldberg 10:21

Yeah. So let's even give ourselves maybe a container, like a meeting, right? Perfect. I think that that feels really great. Um, so when we have people from across, you know, the organization coming together for meetings, the number one thing I see is that there's a lack of purpose in these meetings or gatherings, just to begin with, right? That we're coming together and there's not a real purpose to why we are coming together. Maybe we're coming together because we come together on Mondays, right? But that's not a purpose, right? Right. That's just something that we do. Purpose is really articulating the why. Um, and when we can articulate the why of a meeting or gathering, then everyone in the group knows how to show up and knows how to prepare for that meeting or gathering, right? And we rarely see that within our work environments. And that can feel really challenging. I think the second thing that often happens is we come together and meet without clear norms, right? And I see this a lot within meetings, right? Everyone shows up and the norms are sort of implicit, right? We just sort of follow what's always been done rather than intentionally think about how we might co-create norms or behaviors so that people feel like they can contribute, no matter what their views are. And that, right, again, takes a leader that's aware that a meeting is not just about accomplishing tasks, but it's about helping people feel seen throughout the process.

Claude F 11:49

Can you explain to me, like, what are the norms?

Jodie Goldberg 11:54

Yeah, no norms is like, I feel like it's like facilitator speak in a lot of ways, but it's like really coming together and thinking together, right? In this group, how might we be able to show up for one another, right? What are a few behaviors that we might want to surface that we think are just important for all of us to agree upon in order to have a successful meeting, right? Some of those things might be leading with curiosity, right? If we don't know something, instead of saying, I don't know that or I don't like that, right? Being curious, right? Asking curious questions in order to better understand what that person might be sharing. Or step up, step back, which is one of my favorites, which is so many times in meeting, one voice dominates the conversation. So, really surfacing that in our gathering, in order for us to feel like we can belong here, to be aware of how much space we're taking up, step forward and when we can step back. So, those are just some examples. And when we can agree to even three or four of those, we see that a meeting's purpose becomes a little bit clearer, but also we feel like we can hold each other a little bit more deeply.

Claude F 12:56

So, do you think as a manager, it's also our task to make sure that everybody is being listened, is being heard, etc. What happens when you have those people that keep on talking or repeating someone else, you know, in a different word? So, as a manager or participant, participant, how can you stop this behavior? Because it's not that easy, right? And a lot of times those behaviors are sometimes a little bit up in the chain. So, how would you do that?

Jodie Goldberg 13:31

Yeah, um, I think it's a fabulous question. And I think one of the things that I've noticed is that when you hear somebody speaking repeatedly over and over and over again, sometimes it's because they like to talk, but a lot of the times it's actually because that person really wants to feel heard. They want to feel seen, they want to feel validated. And so as a leader, um, I think it's really our job to be aware of who's speaking a lot and who's not speaking at all. And one thing you might want to try is to say to that person, I hear you, I really appreciate the voice and perspective that you're bringing. And I would love to hear, are there other people in the group that would like to contribute as well? And I think that's one way to help that person feel seen and heard and invite others to contribute to the space. Doesn't always work, but I do think it works a lot of the time, enough to where you acknowledge that person and invite other voices in.

Jess K 14:23

So, Jody, I'm the context of meetings, and the comments that you've brought up, I think, is is so poignant, is around how a lot of times people leverage meetings as information sharing. When you do that, so let's say we have a weekly status with our whole team, everybody does know the intent, but the level of engagement is usually pretty static. How would you encourage in those types of situations for there to be more collaboration, more individuals coming?

Jodie Goldberg 14:52

One of the things that I mentioned earlier that I think is so important is the importance of having a clear purpose for any meeting. And that actually goes also with weekly meetings, right? So saying that we have a weekly meeting each week, people don't know how to show up, right? But if you say, okay, we have a weekly meeting, but the purpose of that weekly meeting is going to shift each week, right? And by defining that clear purpose, then people will know how to show up in a deeper way. I'll give you an example, right? It might be that the theme of the meeting this week is sharing a story of impact. And what we want to do is invite each person, no matter what their role is on the team, to come with A, how do they define impact within their scope of work? And B, what's a story of impact that they've had within their work that really showcases the impact that our team makes? That completely changes the dynamic of the meeting. Um, A, it empowers people to show up prepared. And B, people feel like they have a voice. They feel like they have something to contribute. That's great.

Jess K 15:52

And in those cases when you do that, I think that helps set the tone, right? The up front. Um, but if the so, like for example, I'm just personal personal experience.

Jodie Goldberg 16:02

Please bring it in. You're this is our space event to share. Yes.

Jess K 16:07

We're helping all of you work besties out there. So in my particular instance, I think of what? Clyde, you want to come off you?

Claude F 16:13

What we just decide who we want to come in our podcast, depending on what we need. What we need both economy and personally.

Jess K 16:25

Yes, I was thinking, so I have a couple, and this is actually more around we have joint team meetings where the intent is just stated, it's for cross-sharing. So each week we're all supposed to talk about the projects we're working on. In many cases, it becomes a list of people asking my team for work and or following up with stuff that we share with them. And there isn't always cross-sharing. So we have started to propose out here's the list of things we want to share. Here's the specific things we'd love to cover off with you. And I have found it it's a little more effective. Um, and it does keep the conversation going. From there, though, where I would love to get your perspective on is how do you continue that without always having to be the one to lead that? Because these are weekly meetings, right? And us having to come up with a fresh new question to help create that connection when you start, it's also a lot of work. Um, and and it is something I think from an organizational standpoint, everybody should own. And yes, the manager can help facilitate that. But in these types of meetings, I'm coming together with peers as well as our direct reports. So for me to constantly lead that, it seems like there's an opportunity for more. Does that make sense?

Jodie Goldberg 17:38

Yeah, yeah. I

Making Weekly Meetings More Collaborative

Jodie Goldberg 17:39

I and I think in a scenario like this, we often think that think that collaboration is about asking questions or or sharing what what do I do? What do you do? Right. But I think what might it look like to really reframe it around collaboration as what might we be able to learn from one another, right? So, what might it even look like to have an exercise where you invite people to share on one large uh piece of post-it paper? What's one thing that you can contribute to this space? One way in which you can contribute. And on another large post-it paper, what's one skill that you're looking to learn? And right, um, and then inviting each group member to actually put that something up there what next to their name, right? So you're not just surfacing um this in real time, but it's an opportunity for help and support beyond this meeting. It's creating that invitation. It's not saying you don't have to do this, but by creating the invitation, it allows us to surface what our real needs are in real time, what we can offer and what or where we want to learn. And that actually creates the space for a great organic connection to happen. And I think I would argue that in our work, that often leads to the most successful collaboration, right? When we start by creating or more organic connections. Okay.

Jess K 18:55

So based off of that, so again, let's say this is a monthly meeting. Your thought is kick off with one of them, create this safe space for people come up with things that they're um, they want to contribute, things that they want to learn. And then we almost use that as the outline for the upcoming meetings to continue and foster it. Is that am I synthesizing that right?

Jodie Goldberg 19:15

Yeah. And and I think too, there's a few ways you could do this, right? One, in real time, invite someone to actually go up to that list and say, what's one thing you want to learn? Go find that person right now in this group. Like, let's actually start that conversation.

Jess K 19:29

Got it.

Jodie Goldberg 19:30

And then um, at the end of the meeting, right, invite people to share, okay, what's one thing you want to learn? And who's that, who is that person that you want to learn it from? Given this list, now go up to them and make a time throughout the next week to actually sit and have lunch together or meet by the water cooler or have that 10-minute Zoom and actually learn that thing. And then in our next meeting, we'll come back together and talk about what did that feel like? What did we now learn? And that's just one strategy that can help us see that A, we're humans, right? We have so we are skilled people. There are so many skills that we have to contribute. I'm sorry. It's okay. And we have so many skills to contribute, and it's our job to help create sort of that space in order to do that.

Claude F 20:13

What are the the most common issues, problems that you see happening in uh meetings?

Jodie Goldberg 20:20

Oh, okay, so many. Oh, where do we start? I know, I know. Okay. So there are a few things. One is um connection, starting with connection building activities, right? What I see usually is that a connection building activity um is just a random idea, a random icebreaker that somebody's thought of. Okay. A lot like what's your favorite ice cream, right? And the responses take way too much time. And so what happens is um a leader will actually say, This connection building activity takes way too much time. No more connection building activities in our meetings, right? Rather than thinking about how there's a real strategy and intention behind how we build them. They think that since that one activity doesn't work, we get rid of the whole thing.

Claude F 21:06

Right.

Jodie Goldberg 21:06

Which is savage, right? Yeah. And it sends a real message to the group, right? That connection does not belong here, that I don't belong here if I can't share pieces of who I am. That's the first one. I think the second one is also right, recognizing that connection is one size fits all, that there's only one, right? But connection's really multi-sensory, right? It doesn't just happen through speaking, it happens through creating activities that allow us to really like listen to others, to get up and walk around, right? Connection doesn't have to just be a question, right? There are so many different ways in order to build connection, whether you're in a virtual Zoom room or you're in person. I think another big thing that I see a lot is that, you know, there's no clear purpose to meetings, right? This meeting could have been an email. And that is the worst, right? And that's when you get to see those signs of. Disconnection, right? And usually the signs of disconnection are all in body language, right? You see people slumping back in their chair, falling asleep, pawning on their phone.

Jess K 22:10

Yeah. Scrolling on their phone. Yeah.

Jodie Goldberg 22:13

Yes, yes. And and right. And in those scenarios, a lot of times leaders try and assert control rather than get curious around what's not working. And that's something that I see a lot with a lot of organizations that I work with. Thank you.

Claude F 22:28

I want to go back into building activity because how can you make it more authentic? Because we've all been in those meetings where, okay, someone's saying, let's do the favorite ice cream. And everybody is rolling their eyes and saying, I don't have time for this thing. I need, you know, whatever. Because sometimes it's not always authentic. How can you change that to make it that it's really something we want to do? Excellent.

Jodie Goldberg 22:59

So I like to say that there's there are icebreakers out there. Icebreakers are just connection questions that are random, right? Like what's your favorite ice cream? And then there are relational strategies, right? Relational strategies are connection-building activities that actually serve a purpose. They align with the content of the meeting. I'll give you an example. So let's say we are in a meeting and they are about to unroll a new strategic plan in this meeting, and they're trying to invite people to see it from a new perspective. Okay. And so, right, I would start with a relational strategy that invites people to understand how to look at something with a new perspective. So the strategy I would use or the game I might use is to take a look at the letters in your name, right? I'm Jody. The letters in my name are J-O-D-I-E. And to come up with a word in your name that describes something about who you are. So for example, there are the three letters in my name are uh J-O-E for Joe, like a cup of coffee. I'm a coffee connoisseur, okay? You would never know this about me, but I love craft coffee, right? And so what that does is it's actually a strategy that invites me to take a look at my name, something I look at every day and see a new perspective within that. And that's a great way to frame the next section of the meeting, which is all about taking a look at something with a new perspective.

Claude F 24:23

Thank you. So it's not just a gratitude thing of saying, what's your asking, but really coming up in the meeting for a purpose.

Jodie Goldberg 24:32

Exactly, right? You would never make a move in chess without a strategy. And the same thing goes with how we build out relationships, right? We would we have to really think about it with intentionality. And if we put the same amount of time and energy in thinking about connection as we did the content of a meeting, I think people would really feel like they belong more deeply in our spaces.

Jess K 24:55

You hit on a really good point

Icebreakers Versus Real Relational Strategy

Jess K 24:57

there. So when individuals who are leading certain meetings are coming up with the content, what would be your coaching on kind of the balance of moving of the content versus the moving of the connection?

Jodie Goldberg 25:09

Yeah, I think it would be first understanding the group. Who is this group, right? Like, is it a big group? Are they familiar with each other? Are there interteam dynamics that are just important for us to know about, right? Like that's real, right? Oh yeah, based on what's real in front of us, right? Not based on some like vision of uh you told me.

Jess K 25:31

Everybody gets along and I was holding hands and singing kumbaya.

Jodie Goldberg 25:34

Exactly. Like, and that's beautiful and aspirational, but that is to hell, it is not real. You know, it is so not real. And we can't pretend that that's real. So to think about a bunch of these key factors um around the group's needs, and then to think about the length of the meeting, right? If the meeting's an hour, right? It might be that this group needs a lot of support. So maybe actually we would spend half the meeting creating and deepening that relationship versus bringing the content, right? But it it's really about thinking strategically about what the group needs and how we can ensure the group feels seen and heard so that when we introduce the content, they feel ready to listen, to engage, and they feel empowered to contribute. I love that.

Jess K 26:15

All right, I I do want to go back to some of the meetings because I I know our work bestie community has commented a lot about burnout and stress, and a lot of that has to do with them feeling they're constantly in meetings that don't give them the time to further what their actual tasks at hand are. So you commented earlier on about making sure people feel they understand the intent of the meeting, making sure there's a balance between the connection and the content of the meeting. Now we're all getting these meetings together. We feel these connections. We we really do understand that, but at the end of the day, some of these meetings are meant to make decisions. So, from that perspective, what would you see as next steps to ensure that would be effective in certain meetings?

Jodie Goldberg 27:02

I think what a great meeting does is creates the space for people to feel like they contribute. I see a lot of leaders try and exercise control in a meeting. And an excellent meeting isn't about exercising control, it's about creating the space to hear different voices and perspectives. And then a great facilitator will pause and say, okay, now we've heard from all of you around your ideas around X. Now we're gonna transition from our visioning to decision making. Making the implicit explicit is a key strategy in helping us make decisions and meetings. And it's also a cue to those in the meetings that now it's time to stop brainstorming and visioning and to start making decisions. And we need those cues. And oftentimes leaders or whoever's running the meeting doesn't plan for that, right? Um, they just say, we're gonna have this meeting, not a lot of agenda time, right? We might do a connection. Connection takes 45 minutes, doesn't leave us enough time for brainstorming. And then whoops, the meeting's over, right? So I think a great, great meeting makes the implicit explicit and creates that clear

From Brainstorming To Clear Decisions

Jodie Goldberg 28:10

space for decision-making time.

Jess K 28:11

Totally agree with that. In the case where the meeting has potentially spent a little more time on the connection or um the sharing of the ideas. Don't we also need a facilitator, though, to make sure that we aren't kind of butting up against 30-second, two-minute, one-minute mark to make that quick decision. Is it the role of a facilitator or do you feel there's ways they could encourage how do we create the space to actually then come up with the decision?

Jodie Goldberg 28:39

I agree with that. And right, I also think that in meetings, um, we often think that we are confined to the time, right? And it actually might be right.

Jess K 28:50

In some cases, yeah.

Jodie Goldberg 28:51

Right, a gap between what we thought the time, how long this would take, and what's actually happening. And that's also where a facilitator might say, okay, I'm recognizing, right? Making the implicit, explicit, I'm recognizing that actually what the group needs here is a little bit more time to make this decision. And so we may need an answer by Thursday. So here are my two next steps, right? Of how I might go about it. I I think part of it is um is recognizing also the just like the clear needs of the group.

Claude F 29:23

So it can be also at the beginning of the meeting, like I don't like to say agenda, but what is the goal of the meeting where we need to make a decision from the start, saying, okay, I'm time to think, but at the end, the hour of the meeting, decision needs to be made.

Jodie Goldberg 29:42

Listen, that's true too, right? And if a decision needs to be made, then that's going to be super clear in the purpose before the meeting, right? We articulate the purpose of a meeting, not when we get to the meeting, but that purpose should be clear on our calendar and in an email beforehand. A great meeting has an agenda that's sent before, that's a reflection of that purpose. And then it's reiterated again when we get to that meeting, right? Here's the purpose of the meeting, here's the agenda of the meeting. And I'm curious, any questions, so that we feel like we can be on the same page towards that. Yeah. And here's what we need to do. Um, so yeah, Claude, a hundred percent. But it shouldn't be that meeting shouldn't be the first time we're hearing that. I think that that's the biggest point.

Claude F 30:25

But because I think that reconvining afterwards is nothing more frustrating than that. If the meeting was about we have to make decision, it went at the end of the meeting, no decision, and then we have to reconvene 15 minutes.

Jess K 30:42

That is the but the so that was my question. Does it make sense to cut people off and say, I I don't have time to share anymore, or to let them share? Totally. It seems like in many cases you still want to let them share, but you say, guess what? I need you to have the answer to me by the end of the day. So that means we're gonna send out a survey question, or I'm gonna make the collective decision of my own. And you just clarify that. It's just a balance. It's a balance, right? Because some of that is connection. Like if people want to feel seen and heard, you gotta let them say some of it.

Claude F 31:10

But sometimes you can't always be seen for every meeting.

Jodie Goldberg 31:15

Feeling seen and heard doesn't have to be saying things, right? Maybe we give everyone a whiteboard or a piece of paper and say, what's your response? Write it down here and hold it up or hand it to me. We tend to think that feeling seen and heard is only speaking. What's amazing too is we think that these tools like poll everywhere are just for virtual meetings, right? But what could it look like to actually do a poll live in a room, right? To get do a pulse check from the group to see how people are feeling around certain things and to use that as a really quick data point to be able to make a decision, right? So I think, and sometimes that's actually a way that people feel even more seen and heard, right? We're making the assumption that again, speaking is comfortable for everyone. It's not actually, right? Right. Yeah. Those extroverts or people who get their energy from speaking, or the people who feel like, I'm sure you know these people, I definitely do, who don't know what they want to say yet. So they talk more in order to figure that out, right? And yet there are so many people who have such thoughtful responses that actually aren't that comfortable sharing aloud, that really want to be able to share with maybe just one other person in the space. Yeah.

Jess K 32:25

These are great ideas because I do think you'd wind up hearing some of the most impactful, unique, and distinct perspective from those individuals that don't always like to be the first to raise their hand or even talk out loud. Outside of using surveys, are there other things you can think of that could help encourage and almost like flattening the playing field so everybody's voice does truly get heard?

Jodie Goldberg 32:47

One of my favorite strategies to use, especially when you're in a big group, um, is the strategy I like to call think, pair, share. So I don't know if you've heard of this before, but in a meeting, what I'll love to invite people to do is I'll give them a prompt. What's your favorite ice cream? You invite people to actually take a moment and think about it, to write it down. What's that favorite ice cream flavor and what does it say about you? Write it down. Um, because a lot of us actually need time and space to think about a response before sharing, and we're often not given it. So give everyone one to two minutes to write down their response and then to actually share it with a partner. Sharing it with one other person just gives you an opportunity to test it out. I could say I love um Rocky Road because, you know, it's got it's filled with all kinds of, you know, marshmallows and nuts, right? Like, and it's got lots of energy in it, right? Um, and that's, and if I share it with Jess with you and Claude, right? That's you could be like, oh, Jody, I learned so much about you, right? It's my way of workshopping it. And it's a way for us to get to know each other in a smaller group. And then as a facilitator, I might say, after, you know, I give everyone a few minutes to share in their small group, okay, I'd love to be able to hear who in their group would feel comfortable, right? Something that they learned about someone, about someone else's ice cream flavor. And it's such a great way for me to raise my hand. And let's say, Jess, you you love chocolate vanilla swirl, right? I could say, I just learned something new about Jess. She loves chocolate vanilla swirl, which is um a metaphor for the many identities that she's holding. I don't I don't know what it might be, but it's such a great way um to that feels on brand for me.

Jess K 34:20

Thank you.

Jodie Goldberg 34:21

And I didn't mean to make an assumption about that, but how cool, right? You as got to got to know one or two other people. And instead of saying who wants to share, I might say who learned something. Right. And what did you learn?

Jess K 34:35

Right. So you're giving you the person who doesn't like to talk, but you get to learn about them still. So in essence, they're indirectly sharing. I love that.

Jodie Goldberg 34:43

And it gives people an opportunity to respond in the way that feels really comfortable for them. Yeah.

Jess K 34:49

Yeah. I think there needs to be more of that because based off the time crunches and just the grind of meetings, I think a lot of us get in rooms, talk about what the options are, and then just move forward. There's not that pause to say, am I thinking about the connectivity of the team and how and in which way everyone in this room would feel most comfortable to contribute? That that is something I don't always feel is first and foremost in a lot of meetings. Yeah.

Jodie Goldberg 35:12

I I feel like we tend to watch movies and see meetings in a really big boardroom and think that that's what we need to emulate. But actually, right, I think that that's hindering our ability to be creative. One thing we haven't touched on that I think is so important is the design of a

Space Design And The Time Myth

Jodie Goldberg 35:28

meeting space. I like to say that physical space dictates experience. When we're in a room and there's a really, really, really, really long table and I can barely see the people that are down there, right? I feel so disconnected from what's happening on that side of the room, right? So actually, what might it look like to go from having one big long board table to having three or four smaller tables where people actually can feel like they're seeing each other and they can connect with one another? We often think that that meetings need to happen in boardrooms, but what could happen if a meeting happened outside? Because it's a beautiful day and we're actually leveraging that people need to get up. They've been sitting all day. And if we we cater to their personal needs, they're actually going to be able to show up in a deeper, more meaningful way.

Jess K 36:13

They've given us a lot of great ideas for how to really host a meeting and connection with your teams and teams around you. What's the biggest misconception about meetings in general?

Jodie Goldberg 36:24

It's something that we touched on that I really want to underscore, which is that meetings need to take one hour or 30 minutes, right? That a that productivity is directly related to time, right? Actually, I find that the most productive meetings are not based on time. They're based on intentional design, right? So I can design a great 15 meeting minute meeting that could be productive, or I could design a great 60 meeting minute meeting that could also be productive. It's all about how we intentionally design. Um, and if we intentional, if we design with intention, then it can lead to greater productivity. And it can be 15 minutes, it can be 30 minutes, it can be 45, it can be an hour.

Jess K 37:05

I would love it to be the 15.

Jodie Goldberg 37:08

And it's possible, it's possible. What could it look like if instead of one 60-minute meeting, we had four 15-minute meetings throughout the day?

Jess K 37:17

Give yourself the couple of minutes to think for the next step.

Jodie Goldberg 37:20

Exactly. And everyone would show up fresh.

Jess K 37:23

Yeah, it's interesting. Most important question of the whole podcast Do you have a work bestie?

Jodie Goldberg 37:30

Oh, I love this. Okay. So now I feel like I've I've made two new work besties here. And Dennis Claude, thank you for having me. Very honored. I will tell you, um, as a um as someone who owns their own business, I'm the founder and principal of Flourish Consulting. Um, I have another consultant who um I like look to for collaboration, for thought partnership. We work together within an organization. Um, and we are 20 years apart in age. She's 20 years older than me. And she has taught me so much about who I am and the person that I want to be. And it's beautiful as we've both started our own businesses. We are there. We each hold complimentary strengths. And it's our job um to hold each other accountable and to really challenge each other. Um, and we're on it. And it's beautiful. I love that. That's amazing. Opportunity to learn with and from you, to connect. It really just so much fun. You

Work Besties Closing And Where To Connect

Jodie Goldberg 38:30

both exemplify what it means to be in connection and relationship and to be those work besties. Jody, if people want to learn more about you, how can they do that? Feel free to find me on LinkedIn. My handle is uh Jody Goldberg. I'm also doing uh TikTok videos to help you learn new uh relational strategies to elevate your meetings and gatherings. Um, and finally, you can visit my website, www.flourishconsultinginc.com. Would love the opportunity to learn more about you and to part. Jody, this has been awesome.

Jess K 38:59

Thank you so much. Yeah. So besties out there, I end this to your other besties. Help prevent them from continuing to have bad meetings and make sure you exemplify it by saying, guess what? Maybe your meeting could have been an email.

Claude F 39:14

So to all the work besties out there, keep supporting each other.

Jess K 39:19

Remember, whether you're swapping snacks in the break room, rescuing each other from endless meetings, or just sending that perfectly timed meme. Having a work bestie is like having your own personal hype squad.

Claude F 39:32

So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the chaos, and of course, thriving. Until next time, stay positive, stay productive, and don't forget to keep supporting each other.

Jodie Goldberg 39:45

Work besties!