Setting Healthy Boundaries at Work with Shannon Petrovich

Have you ever said yes when you really wanted to say no? Or walked away from a conversation feeling drained, anxious, or unsure why it affected you so much?

In this episode of Work Besties Who Podcast, Jess and Claude sit down with therapist, coach, author, and YouTube creator Shannon Petrovich to talk about toxic communication patterns, people-pleasing, narcissistic behavior, and how healthy boundaries can help us protect our peace at work and beyond.

Shannon shares how toxic relationships can show up in professional settings, why boundaries are not the same as ultimatums, and how to recognize when someone’s behavior is pulling you into old patterns. She also explains why self-talk matters, how journaling can help us process what is happening, and why work besties can play such an important role in helping us respond instead of react.

This episode is a reminder that clear is kind, boundaries are healthy, and sometimes the strongest thing you can do is step back, stay grounded, and choose how you want to show up.

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Transcript

Old Stories And Fear At Work

Jess K 0:00

Is about old stories, self-talk, fear, people pleasing, and learning how to communicate from that healthier place.

Claude F 0:07

Exactly, because at the end of the day, Clear is kind and CLIA is powerful. By the end of this episode, we are answering this question: how do we recognize toxic communication patterns and start building healthier boundaries, clearer conversation, and stronger relationships at work? Hi, I'm Claude. And I'm Jess. We are corporate employees by day, entrepreneurs by night, and work besties for life.

Jess K 0:34

Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up, laugh through the chaos, and thrive together in every industry. Work besties.

Meet Shannon And Her Mission

Jess K 0:45

Shannon, we are so excited to have you here. You're a therapist, a coach, author, creator. You're really big on YouTube, which we're excited about. For anyone meeting you for the first time, can you share a little bit about your story and what led you to do this work?

Shannon Petrovich 1:01

I've been a therapist for about 38 years. And actually, my first job was at a Battered Women's Shelter. And that was part of what drove me into graduate school to become a therapist because I couldn't understand how we get into these toxic relationships. And then some of the women that we were working with would get free. And six months later, they would be back into a new relationship in the same sort of vein. And we were obviously not blaming the victim, but on the other hand, wondering why is it that people keep going back into the same type of relationships? It's kind of become life's work. About eight years ago, I decided I wanted to share this information that I've gathered over the years with a wider audience. Most people write a book, and I thought, I don't want to write a book. It's too much work. And everybody's doing YouTube. And so I thought, well, I could do that and just share strategies, information with people who may never get a therapist or coach because they don't have access. As I started, it was just general mental health. But as it took off the information that people really were craving is how to deal with narcissistic and other toxic people.

Signs Of Toxic Relationship Dynamics

Jess K 2:11

What are some of those signs or signals that people should be looking for to recognize that toxic relationship?

Claude F 2:18

Oh, we've been what is a narcissistic person?

Shannon Petrovich 2:20

Yeah, and those are so important. And what I have come to learn and what I really teach um throughout all my work, whether it's the the book that I finally did write, which was a lot of work, but um all of my coaching, all of my I also have a masterclass video series if you want help moving along, that helps um sort of give you that um three-dimensional walkthrough of the healing process. But what I find that's most critical is that people get in touch with and heal from the inside out. Because if we're just looking at the outside, we're not gonna get that work done. But the the stuff that you can see is what you were saying in your introduction. It was a beautiful introduction. Do I why do I feel drained by this person? Um, you know, if my thoughts, feelings, wants, and needs don't matter in that relationship, there's something genuinely wrong there. And that is is typical that you'll find that that person hooks you and then devalues you and then hooks you and then isolates you. And so there's this back and forth that's very tricky and that gets us into that placating, peacekeeping, people-pleasing mode, and it stops us from taking care of ourselves, and we can even lose track of what I think, feel, want, or need. And then we're really kind of in the midst of it.

How Toxic Patterns Show Up At Work

Jess K 3:53

So we are um obviously work besties, and we we talk a little bit more about the work environment. Would you help us understand? Because I think when we think of toxic relationships and narcissists, we do automatically think of the personal side of things, but you hit on it and in in um reading your bio and talk listening to some of your YouTube elements, you do talk about how this reflects in work. Yeah. Um, would you mind sharing how you see this more often?

Shannon Petrovich 4:23

That's really critical too. So the way we show up in our personal relationships is exactly the same way we show up in work. So if we are people pleasers, peacekeepers, placators, and that's really the three deadly peas, that we are going to have st struggles in our family relations, our personal, our work. And it's all going to be very in even our friendships. You know, I've had people who once they do this work, maybe it started as a work relationship or something else, and then it's segued into, oh my God, that person treats me like the same way. And I let this person walk on me in that area of my life. So I think what's critical again is that you look at the inside, how do I feel? When people are walking around with a lot of anxiety and depression, oftentimes it's because of this internal struggle where they're setting themselves up in relationships to not matter and to not have a voice. And so when we start to clean that up from the inside out, then we see what we've got. So sometimes when you clean that up, then your work people respect you and hold, you know, honor your boundaries. Other times when you set a boundary, things escalate. Well, that's good information, right? So we look at all of these different experiences as information. And so if I step back and I don't take all of somebody else's stuff personally, but I look at who are they? You know, what what are their beliefs and values and and attitudes, and you know, how do I really feel about that person? Then I can I can take care of myself better in that relationship. Um, so I've seen a lot of people who struggle with a a boss who is narcissistic, who, you know, their again, their thoughts, feelings, wants, and needs matter. Nobody else's. Everything revolves around them. If you're puffing them up, this is critical. If you're puffing them up, they're

Boundary Steps With A Narcissistic Boss

Shannon Petrovich 6:35

happy.

Claude F 6:35

When you're in a professional matter and have a narcissistic uh boss, how do you do it? Do you play the game and you puff them up? What are you supposed to do besides leaving?

Shannon Petrovich 6:47

Because some very accurately. Yeah, that's really challenging because I I did a YouTube about this a few years ago because somebody on my channel or some, you know, one of my listeners said, Hey, I just saw this from somebody else who's like a massive name narcissist person. And um, they said, Oh, this person said to puff them up. And I said, No, no, no. Um what's it's not even just puffing up. It's like, yeah, all of that. Yuck, gross. So we don't want to do that because that's demeaning and it can be as simple as I really don't like being spoken to that way. I'm gonna take a break. I'm gonna hang up now, let's talk later. It can be I feel very disrespected in this, in this professional relationship, and I need to, I need to take a step back and think about what I want to do about that, or let it back up a hair. Boundaries are are come in a gradation, okay? So I used to do a lot of equine therapy and in horses, in working with horses, communicate with each other across pastures, right? And so a horse can look at another horse and give him a look, and the other horse will say, Yeah, you're the boss. I'm good. So they respect, they hear, they feel like from a distance. And so we learn by working with horses or that kind of thing to be subtle in our communications and subtle in our boundaries. So we can start a boundary with just a look. Maybe that's not laughing at the gross joke that somebody said, right? It can be not doing the giggle and flirt with somebody who's being inappropriate. It can be a stern look. And then you can up that if the person doesn't respect it. So then you can up that to a more stern look, or I really don't like that, or I think I I've got something to do, I've got somewhere to be and removing yourself. You're not like going from zero to bah freaking out on somebody.

Claude F 9:00

Um but as we but what if I'm so sorry, but if you say to someone, to a narcissist, I do not, I did not like where you went, it's not appropriate or whatever, most likely they will put it back on you, right? Because that's their motto. So what is next? Because at the end of the day, unfortunately, they have this power. I don't like to say it, but they have this power over you, they'll pay the paycheck, whatever. So it is so hard to really continue and show them that they have an issue because for them, they don't have the issue, it's everybody else.

Jess K 9:40

That's right.

Claude F 9:41

So I'm just afraid that if we look a stern look to someone like that, it's not going to go well for us. No?

Shannon Petrovich 9:51

It's we have to decide where our where our ultimate boundary is, right?

Claude F 9:57

Yeah.

Shannon Petrovich 9:58

And that's the the key too for yourself, and that's the part that you do, not in front of that person. So if you decide, you know what, if this continues, I'm done. So you can sort of set your own boundary. Set your own ultimate, and that can be whatever you decide it is. But the problem is that we often go from passive all the way to quit, take your job and shove it. And we miss all those steps that are opportunity. It's also important to realize that I can I can step back emotionally and watch that circus, still show up and do my work, but not be so impacted by it. And that's hard, but that's the healing journey. When you heal from the inside, then you're doing your work for the paycheck or because you care about that work and you're not doing it for him or her. You're just you're you're doing your job, you're doing your best work, you are feeling good about yourself and your work. Whatever happens over there, that's their circus.

Claude F 11:05

Yeah.

Jess K 11:06

Yeah, I think I um the way you're stating it or how you're providing like boundaries to you is like, yes, you're gonna set that ultimate, here's the line, but what are those step gates in between to try is a different perspective. I don't think we always hear, right? It is, it's usually like draw the line and then on them. But what you're saying is there's checkpoints in between. So I think there is this there's this balance that needs to happen. Where we want to make sure our work bestie community thinks about though, is like how do you do that efficiently while still being authentic and true to yourself and not taking it on, which perhaps your to your point is seeking other counsel to talk to someone about what other inner inner elements are happening that are being triggered that you're not even realizing.

Shannon Petrovich 12:00

Exactly.

Self Talk And Healing From Inside

Shannon Petrovich 12:01

And on all of my work, I start with what is your relationship with yourself? We talk to ourselves somewhere along the lines of 70,000 times a day, and I don't know who counted it, but that's what they say. That's a lot. If I'm putting myself down, it doesn't even matter what's happening out there. And then when somebody else puts me down, I have no strength to combat. Right. And so we have to expunge all of that. We have to become our own um best cheerleader, best friend, best support system, so that whatever's going on out there isn't also joining with what's going on in here. And now we're off to the races, and I feel really trashed. Uh, so if you fix that stuff internally, that's the whole journey of healing uh that I talk about in my work. Because when we do come to work healed, we show up differently.

Jess K 12:53

So communication is is key. Dealing with your feelings is also in those times, though, you're dealing with your feelings, or maybe you haven't quite solved that part. You're still working every day, potentially dealing with a narcissistic boss or somebody in your company. So the stress and anxiety continues. What are ways we can be working on that at the same time as working on

Calm Fight Flight Freeze Fast

Jess K 13:19

ourselves?

Shannon Petrovich 13:19

Do you have any thanks for that question? Because, you know, the other piece that I like to help people with is that there are different parts of our brain. And the survival mind, the the fight, flight, freeze, when that's triggered, we are just on fire. And our rational mind actually goes offline because if we're wired to be able to run from a man-eating tiger or whatever, and you don't make the list and you know, logic your way out, you just run. So that that fight, flight, freeze, when that's on fire, we don't have access to good rational thinking. It's super important to learn how to calm down that irrational survival mind. And we do that by utilizing the emotional mind, not making sure that the emotional mind isn't fueling it, going, oh my God, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, and then you're off to the races. But that the that you use the emotional mind to say, all right, I'm okay. Uh this is not the end of the world. I can do my work, or I can stand up for myself, or I can take care of this later. So calming yourself down, whether you believe in prayer or mindfulness or self-calming or exercise or deep breathing or stretching, all of those things actually calm down that emotional survival system. And when we do that, now we have access to our rational mind. Now we can make a plan. Now we can decide what our boundaries and limits are and what to do next. So that's really critical that you're doing that work all the time when you're dealing with a toxic boss or a toxic colleague. A lot of people have toxic colleagues that are throwing them under the bus and stealing their work and trashing them to everybody else and using flying monkeys to put them down. Like there's some crazy stuff going on in the

Gray Rock And The Journalist Mindset

Shannon Petrovich 15:16

world.

Jess K 15:16

Now, on the flip side, though, there are a lot of examples of work besties. Yeah. Um, Shannon, do you say you're you do see your work bestie potentially dealing with a narcissist and at times is maybe reacting versus responding? What are ways that your the work bestie or somebody else, some mentor or somebody could help coach person as they're going through it?

Shannon Petrovich 15:41

Such a wonderful opportunity for helping each other and supporting each other. I think helping them see. So if we look at somebody with narcissistic or toxic qualities, the they're ultimately wanting control and um, you know, it's all greed, money power, you know, the usual things. And what they do to get that is everything. So if you think of their strategies as a smorgasbord, they've got intimidation, manipulation, um, undermining you, isolating you, making you feel like you're super special, and then undermining you or isolating you. Like all these different games are just games. And it's just a whole bunch of different hooks on a wall. And they're just trying to hook you. Whatever works, they keep hooking you with that. That stops working. They got 18,000 other ideas. So when you help somebody to stand back and go, wow, even if they, you know, pour on the tears and the guilt trip and the intimidation, it's all the same BS, all the same garbage. So it's helping somebody see it's not about you. They did this to everybody before, they're gonna do this to everybody after you. Yeah. And this is not your circus, not your monkeys. How do you help them to just do their job and not react and not get their own stuff triggered? Also, it's true about narcissists, they're like sharks with blood and water. They know exactly what your buttons are, and they're gonna go right in for that jugular. As soon as you start bleeding, then they go in harder and they keep at you. So it's so important to have that sense of stepping back and not letting any of that impact you. And instead, when someone does something like that to you, you go, wow, internally, that's good information. I see how incredibly toxic and mean that person really, really is. Like, who would do that? Who would say that?

Jess K 17:47

That goes back to what your question was, Love. You are dealing with a boss who's you feel is going to have a bad effect when you set those that that's what you do, just stop giving the emotional response.

Claude F 18:00

The emotional response, which I do believe they will double down on it for a while. Yeah, yeah.

Jess K 18:07

Because and you just keep giving the nano. Exactly.

Claude F 18:10

They will double down because they want to get something out of you. Then at the end, they'll you know what, it's not working. Let me find another victim.

Shannon Petrovich 18:20

Yeah. Unfortunately, they will they'll go find somebody else to to poke and prod. But if you can be that, now some people call it the uh gray rock. I like to call it the uh the journalist. So if you think of Krishna Mampur, she was just like, what a rock star in journalism. Because she just was like, she could be interviewing like a terrorist or a you know, serial killer. It didn't matter, she was just there and doing her job and showing up. And if she went and broke down later, um, you know, the bombs are going off and all that stuff, but she's like unflappable. She's present, doing her thing, totally smart, rational, doing doing the work, but not getting emotionally involved and and allowing herself to be completely separate and present in herself.

Journaling Plans And When To Leave

Jess K 19:14

How do you how do you know when like there's hope versus maybe I just need to distance myself? That's the point or points that we should be registering as we're having those conversations.

Shannon Petrovich 19:24

I think it has to do with the response that you see. And again, if we've taken that emotional step back, their stuff is not my fault. I didn't cause it and I can't cure it. And that's kind of an Al-Anon concept. I didn't cause it, I can't cure it. So when we step back and we look at that from a bit of a distance, then we can see, okay, all I did was set a boundary, or all I did was say, hey, don't speak to me that way, or all I all I did was like really normal stuff, and that person went ballistic, or went off and pouted, or went off and trashed me to everybody else. It's like, wow, good information. And at some point you may have to quit, or you just keep being stronger and stronger in your step back place, um, and just stronger and stronger in that journalist place. You'll see a response. Either, either like, oh, sorry about that, nine escalation. And like I said, though, there's like a 18,000 million games. And so even a little microaggression or a little pouty or a little you don't appreciate me, that's another game, right?

Claude F 20:35

Yeah. And when do you know exactly when it's time for distance or when it's time for conversation?

Shannon Petrovich 20:43

That's a hard one. I think that's that's why coaching and counseling is important, but work besties could do that for each other, right? So if if you are kind of talking to each other about how to help each other through that kind of thing, and then saying, okay, no, this is a red line that I won't let it go beyond, or you know, thinking about. And I think it's a good idea to write a write it out. And that's why in my book I talk about journaling and in my uh master class and coaching. It's journaling is how we communicate with ourselves, right? And so we we can journal out all our feelings, we can journal out all our thoughts and our needs and and then make a plan. That um again puts us in our rational mind and helps us to go through something more methodically and not just get triggered and reactive. Because when we're triggered and reactive, we create less respect and less boundary with that person.

Jess K 21:52

When they're journaling, are they documenting what has transpired, or is this more about your Engagement and approach as you're dealing with it.

Shannon Petrovich 22:02

It's really about processing. If it's really a toxic work environment, then you should be documenting. My purpose in having people journal is to and to recognize these are my feelings, they're not facts. Because people get lost in that too. I feel, you know, X, Y, and Z. Those are not necessarily facts. It's how I feel. And it's a combination of my whole entire history and the present moment. Bestie can help you to sort out, okay, that's old stuff. This is current. Then it also helps us to get in a rational mind and make a plan. What we also have to recognize is sometimes it's time to get out, and we don't, our heart's still really hooked in there. And this back and forth has sucked us into a trauma bond. I know that sounds really weird that we would have that feeling at work, but it's very possible that we have parts of that that we love and maybe even parts of that relationship that's toxic that we're attached to. Because when you suss it out and say, wait, A, B, C, and D are true, I don't love that person I'm attached, or I don't love that job I'm attached. We have to suss that out. And journaling helps you to get in your rational mind and put all that down. And then you can say, okay, I'm gonna follow this plan and even getting out, even though my emotions are still hooked.

Jess K 23:25

How do you know, or is there a time that when it's you can start to see that that healthy conver communication is just not working? So you need to disengage.

Shannon Petrovich 23:35

That's a tough one. Um, it's really important just to stay in touch with yourself. Journaling helps you do that. Notice the toll it's taking on you emotionally, physically, mentally, um, all of the different things. Talk with somebody who's known you a while. Does this make sense for me anymore? What have you noticed? Because people oftentimes know more about what we're going through than than we do. They're like, dude, you are so depressed and so anxious since you've been working there and you need to just stop. When we do that internal work, then we are much clearer about what is my old stuff and what's current. And then we're much more capable of standing up for ourselves and more capable of saying, I'm done. Being in that rational mind also helps us make a plan. And when we have a plan, and I think going into any hard conversation, honestly, I think it's a good idea to have a plan be.

Claude F 24:33

Oh yeah.

Shannon Petrovich 24:34

So that you can say, hey, dude, I could go out and I can quit this job in five minutes, I could restart my other thing. And so you decide I'm done with this bullying, right? So if you have a plan, whether you say that plan out loud, you can feel it inside your heart and soul. And you can have that, no, I'm done with this behavior. You know, their choices to stop a behavior, or you're gonna be out the door. Um, so when you come with a plan in your mind, you're gonna stand more strongly.

Claude F 25:10

At the same time, is it even worth it to go down to their level and say, I'm not going to accept that book? Because I think it's not going to change anything in their end. But it can.

Shannon Petrovich 25:20

I I've been so surprised over the years, Claude and Jess. Some relationships I thought didn't have a prayer changed radically because somebody showed up completely differently. And that person valued that person enough and was somehow humbled to making those changes. And I've seen relationships I thought are fine and they went down the twos because that person escalated when the boundaries were set. So you really don't know. Uh, friendships, sibling relationships, you don't know until you do that internal stuff and then show up fully. And we have to kind of hold ourselves to that, showing up fully. If we're showing up as placators and we're showing up sort of putting in everything and not accepting or expecting anything in return, we need to change that story. And when we do, we don't know what's going to happen. It could change.

Claude F 26:17

Because I thought it was hopeless.

Jess K 26:18

No, I think I think there's that's what the whole point of it was. Like instead of just going in, creating this line and saying, that's it, you cross this and we're done, you're doing little steps along the way. Would this work? Could I fix this? It's just try. Whether work or personal or personnel of some sort.

Shannon Petrovich 26:37

Our culture is very all or nothing. And it's amazing to me that people are so quick to cut people off entirely, like never ever to speak to them again. It's just heart-wrenching to me. And um, you know, I've had a lot of people who've shown up for coaching who say, You're the only one that says I might be able to save this relationship, whether it's with a a kid or a job or or a parent. There's always hope when you do the inside work and you come to them strongly, you don't know how they're going to respond because you've never done it before. And things that people came to me saying, No, this is done, but I want to try one last thing, have found that they've connected and they're in relationship today. So I think it's really important to know that we

Key Takeaways And Closing Message

Shannon Petrovich 27:31

don't know.

Jess K 27:31

And we started off the podcast by teasing a question. How do we recognize those toxic communication patterns in others and ourselves and start building those healthier boundaries through and clearer conversations to get that stronger work relationship or any relationship?

Shannon Petrovich 27:50

It's really starts inside. We have to recognize if we are talking to ourselves in really negative, terrible ways, in ways that we wouldn't say to other people. You know, people say, Well, that's just me. No, it really isn't, because if you don't say that to your friends, you wouldn't say, Oh, you're such an idiot when you make a mistake. You don't say that to your friends, you say that to yourself inside your own head. Oh, yeah. Change, I know you wouldn't have friends. But um, but the point is to be our own friend instead of being a toxic voice inside our own heads. And once we do that, we recognize toxic voices outside of our heads. We see when people are not listening, not um not being respectful, um, not hearing us, not all of that stuff. And when we can shut that stuff down, then we find out what's gonna happen. Sometimes the people our person will change, sometimes they don't. And that's either one's okay with you. That's information, and then you're gonna set that next boundary.

Jess K 28:58

That's awesome. Right. Thank you so much for that. Just wanted to say thank you so much, Shannon, for being on our podcast. We've learned so much. Um, and we look forward to continuing our partnership with you for all the work besties out there. We hope you took away something from this. Please like, share, and provide us feedback. And as always, keep supporting each other. Remember, whether you're swapping snacks in the break room, rescuing each other from endless meetings, or just sending that perfectly timed meme. Having a work bestie is like having your own personal hype squad.

Claude F 29:36

So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the chaos, and of course, thriving. Until next time, stay positive, stay productive, and don't forget to keep supporting each other. Work besties!